Boatnerd Discussion Forum

by **Statmk** » November 2, 2020, 10:03 am

Following up on the Captain's comments, we were going into Cleveland. Anyone who has done that knows the dangers of that easterly swell that occurs just as you get to the breakwater and pushes you west. Not a good idea to try until the wind goes down. So we were waiting out. The office was in the Terminal Tower and they could see us just sitting out there. They called the Captain, asked why we were not coming in because "It doesn't look too bad out there from here." The Captain's response was "No, I do not imagine that "G*******d Rockefeller Building is rolling too badly." We stifled our laughter so it could not be heard ashore. That was a short conversation. Needless to say, we waited until conditions improved and we could safely make the breakwater entrance. I liked sailing with a Captain like that. Most were.

by **Lakercapt** » November 1, 2020, 9:59 pm

Guest wrote:Thanks Laker Capt and what about wind and waves was there a certain forecast or wind speed or wave height you'd say geez I'm gonna stay up here for a while?

There are brave sailors and others who may take risks but a prudent sailor is one who assesses all the situations and acts accordingly.
Not letting any office interfere with what may be prudent and do what you think is best for all concerned. Your life and that of your crew would be primary number one.

by **Guest** » November 1, 2020, 11:37 am

Thanks Laker Capt and what about wind and waves was there a certain forecast or wind speed or wave height you'd say geez I'm gonna stay up here for a while?

by **Lakercapt** » October 31, 2020, 4:54 pm

Guest wrote:Laker Capt you would be a good person to ask this question I understand most masters do the piloting in rivers locks making docks etc but what else would make you stay up in the pilot house as you read stories where the Captain fell asleep in his chair cause he was up stairs for 2 days straight?

It has been on occasion when the pilotage in the lower river and you did not have a qualified mate that shares the pilotage then it is a very long pilotage. I on more than one occasion said enough was enough and put the boat to anchor and had a good sleep. The company was not impressed by this delay but they did not say this to me directly.
The company is no longer operating.
Another occasion would be in reduced visibility where more than one person is needed to operate with safety.
I have been very tired at times as when there were long transits in the Welland canal and tying up frequently was necessary.
The trip from the "Lakehead to the lower river and by the time you got to Montreal you were just about physically and emotionally drained and bed was necessary.

by **Guest** » October 31, 2020, 11:47 am

Laker Capt you would be a good person to ask this question I understand most masters do the piloting in rivers locks making docks etc but what else would make you stay up in the pilot house as you read stories where the Captain fell asleep in his chair cause he was up stairs for 2 days straight?

by **Lakercapt** » October 30, 2020, 5:49 pm

hugh3 wrote:The Pilothouse atmosphere usually depended on where the officers received there license - thru the Hawsepipe or thru one of the State/Federal Trade Schools.

Where one receives their license is irrelevant as all sit the same exams. In Canada, I am speaking for not the US.
If the prior training has anything to do with it the way you completed you required sea time is somewhat different.
Through the hawse pipe refers to gaining your time as a deckhand. The other ways are through an apprenticeship or as a cadet which is very much the way most now acquire their qualifications.
Does either turn out a better person is debatable.
My apprenticeship was much harder than through the hawse pipe I know for a fact as I was poorly paid and hard worked.
As long as you respect you fellow crew members is the main thing.

by **RCRVRP** » October 30, 2020, 11:55 am

hugh3 wrote:The Pilothouse atmosphere usually depended on where the officers received there license - thru the Hawsepipe or thru one of the State/Federal Trade Schools.

I'd be interested to hear the difference if you could please explain.
This is one very interesting thread for me and I'm sure many others who are greatly interested in how a boat works but have never been on one.

by **Lakercapt** » October 30, 2020, 6:44 am

During my time when I sailed as Master, I told all the mates that when I went to the pilothouse I did not assume the command of the boat. I too liked to sightsee and have a coffee and chat.
When I was going to do so I said in a firm voice "I will now assume control of the boat"
This way there would be no mistakes (we hoped)

by **hugh3** » October 30, 2020, 12:14 am

The Pilothouse atmosphere usually depended on where the officers received there license - thru the Hawsepipe or thru one of the State/Federal Trade Schools.

by **guest** » October 29, 2020, 7:19 pm

Guest006 wrote:Bridge Resource Management, which prevent this through training and changing culture to a team approach, prevents this. Mandatory with Transport Canada...I think its still voluntary on the U. S domestic side.

I wouldn't call it thorough. I'd go as far as to call it pointless. I did this class and it was all basically things any mate/captain should already know. It's just another legal box for the company to check off to avoid liability.

by **geysir** » October 29, 2020, 2:50 pm

Guest wrote:So is there an official turning over of the conn? Does the skipper automatically take over when he's in the pilot house?

As a mate I always waited for the captain to say "I have the conn" or I would ask him if he has the conn.

You need everyone to help prevent accidents. Take the most famous case - the Exxon Valdez. The captain went to his room (against company policy), the mate was out on the bridge wing chatting up the female AB lookout. The AB helmsman put on autopilot without permission. Once the lookout pointed out the vessel was on the wrong side of the buoy the mate went inside and said "hard right" to the helmsman. The helmsman swung the wheel and stood there. Nothing happened since autopilot was engaged. Neither the mate nor helmsman initially watched the rudder indicator. I see fault with the captain, mate, and able seaman (AB).

by **hugh3** » October 29, 2020, 10:38 am

Being a lowly A.B. You only need to be told once that if your opinion was needed it would be requested. If it was a life or death situation naturally you would do something, but if it only amounted to monetary considerations, let the ball fall where it lands...

by **Jon Paul** » October 29, 2020, 9:41 am

hugh3 wrote:[quote I agree completely. The first duty of a wheelsman being an AB is to the safety of the crew and his ship. Period]

What is the first duty of the Mate on watch and the Captain?[/quote]

We are all human and make mistakes.
They too are bound by this first duty but if they fail the wheelsman is the last line of defense to insure this safety, he has the wheel in his hands.

by **hugh3** » October 29, 2020, 5:08 am

[quote I agree completely. The first duty of a wheelsman being an AB is to the safety of the crew and his ship. Period][/quote]

What is the first duty of the Mate on watch and the Captain?

by **Statmk** » October 28, 2020, 4:11 pm

I know about the Detroit River Light collision. Overworked mate in chart room trying to get paper work done. Wheels man out on pilot house wing taking a smoke beak. Watchman on bow calling frantically to pilot house with no one inside the pilot house to answer phone. Ouch. Or so it was explained to me.

by **Guest** » October 28, 2020, 3:13 pm

So is there an official turning over of the conn? Does the skipper automatically take over when he's in the pilot house?

by **Guest** » October 28, 2020, 2:06 pm

Statmk wrote:Well here are a couple.

On September 8, 1993, Indiana Harbor collided with the Lansing Shoals Light Station. There were no injuries and the damage was about $1.9 million for the ship and $100,000 for the light. No"satisfactory explanation" was given. Rumor was that the 3d mate told the wheels man not to speak unless spoken to. Anyone on board that can confirm or deny?

Similar, Cliffs Victory grounding in the Pipe Island Channel on the St. Mary's River. Anyone actually on board with the real story?

Didn't Buffalo hit the Detroit River Light head-on? The story at the time seemed similar to the Indiana Harbor/Lansing Shoal incident.

by **Jon Paul** » October 28, 2020, 9:16 am

Darryl wrote:A captain I worked for a couple years (he's still out there) told me to let him know if he thought something wasn't right. He then said more than one helmsman saved his @$$ a time or two. Any seaman that would knowingly standby and watch the ship he's on pile on the rocks deserves to have his card taken away.

I agree completely. The first duty of a wheelsman being an AB is to the safety of the crew and his ship. Period

by **Guest** » October 28, 2020, 9:12 am

Does anyone know about the insurance coverage details for a lake boat in regard to accidents caused by the negligence on the part of the captain or crew?
With a payout potentially in the multiple millions one would think an insurance company would be VERY interested in finding out who was in control and why certain protocols or rules and regulations were followed or not.

by **mhowie** » October 28, 2020, 7:36 am

When l was a wheelsman in the great lakes system the Captain gave all course headings in the rivers commands like gyro headings steer on a land object or keep the ranges in line which kept the ship in the deepest part of the river or head on a particular buoy ect out in the lake sometimes the mate made course changes on the St Lawrence river system once a pilot was on board he gave all course changes sometimes the pilot would ask you if you knew the way and they would let you make turns and course changes however they always kept a close eye on you and how the ship was doing hope this helps

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