Seaway Traffic Jam

Discussion board focusing on Great Lakes Shipping Question & Answer. From beginner to expert all posts are welcome.
Larry64

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Larry64 »

What are the odds we will have winter guests?
Guest

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Guest »

I think the 2 pilots getting on at Port Weller are -1 for the lake and 1 for the river down to Iroquois. That's after they stop using the pirate boat at Cape Vincent. I may be wrong!
Guest

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Guest »

Don't expect the wider ships to be limited to a shorter season or to be given last priority. The same companies that own those ships run the Seaway. They set the policies. Mckeil, Wagenborg and operators of smaller ships will not get their way on this!
What the Seaway needs to do is study the various methods for ice conditions and standardize there practices. When we transit in ice conditions now, every lock and lock crew has their own techniques. Some are good but some don't seem to have a clue and mess things up for hours or days.
Denny

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Denny »

I agree with most of your comments Ship watcher and you are so correct on your comments as well about the delays for pilots during December at Port Colborne. Heck there were even delays as well up in Port Huron for pilots back in December as well. It seems that every year in December at least there is a shortage of pilots all over the lakes area for these salties every season! Just wonder then what the best solution may be to avoid this situation in the future? I still believe that perhaps maybe they should avoid having the closing date as late as they made it in December for this year and perhaps have the closing date a few weeks earlier at least that way in the future, if there is any bad cold spells like this or at least a large build up of ice early then hopefully there will not be any types of delays or risks of ships getting stuck in the ice like what is going on currently. Please do not fault me as it's just my thoughts.
Ship watcher

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Ship watcher »

There is blame to go all round, but if not for the ridiculous pilotage delays at Port Weller in December, it wouldn't have got to this situation. Believe in late season 2 pilots are compulsory to cross Lake Ontario. In reality any ship's officer worth his salt can easily do that without local help. Jobs for the boys!
Guest

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Guest »

Denny wrote:I would also like to know who else is responsible for the mess that is occurring on the Seaway currently? Yeah you can't prevent and stop Mother Nature unfortunately along with the cold and the ice as well. However, the Seaway set force the closing date this year as to when the Welland and the Seaway Locks would be shut down and I believe that was on December 31? So, any vessels that were in the Seaway system knew then that they had to be cleared of the system if they were heading out to Sea by December 31 or be at risk of being trapped here for the winter. I always thought in the past that the Seaway closing date was around Christmas that all ships and vessels had to be cleared of the system? Now it seems to me at least the Seaway wants to keep extending that date further and further into December. Maybe the Seaway needs to consider making an earlier closing date of the Seaway in December and it might help in the future. Just my thoughts only here and please don't fault me just trying to make cents and my point here is all.
In today's news page, the Seaway's language on the situation seems very conciliatory and doesn't indicate 'blame' towards any parties for the situation, including themselves. I think the focus now is simply to free the boats and get the system closed. I'm sure they'll review this situation over the off-season and implement some rules for wider boats in winter conditions.
Denny

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Denny »

I would also like to know who else is responsible for the mess that is occurring on the Seaway currently? Yeah you can't prevent and stop Mother Nature unfortunately along with the cold and the ice as well. However, the Seaway set force the closing date this year as to when the Welland and the Seaway Locks would be shut down and I believe that was on December 31? So, any vessels that were in the Seaway system knew then that they had to be cleared of the system if they were heading out to Sea by December 31 or be at risk of being trapped here for the winter. I always thought in the past that the Seaway closing date was around Christmas that all ships and vessels had to be cleared of the system? Now it seems to me at least the Seaway wants to keep extending that date further and further into December. Maybe the Seaway needs to consider making an earlier closing date of the Seaway in December and it might help in the future. Just my thoughts only here and please don't fault me just trying to make cents and my point here is all.
Smartguy

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Smartguy »

Once again Mother Nature wins and the Seaway fearless leaders caught with their pants down
Guest

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Guest »

---- isn't the Seaway at least partially responsible ----
Sure the Seaway is responsible for this situation. Its their policies and methods that have lead to it. But they will not be held accountable. Every master entering the Seaway after December 1st is read the Seaways disclaimer absolving the Seaway of responsibility and having masters acknowledge that the Seaway makes no promise the the ship will get a down bound transit.
rh

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by rh »

The Robinson Bay and the Ocean A Simard have been unable to get the Federal Biscay free so now it looks like the Leonard M is on the way from Picton to join the party. The Leonard M is just by Crossover Island with an ETA for Eisenhower of 0148.

I wonder what affect the brute force of 3 tugs is going to have on the ship and/or the lock if they do break her free. It will be a real mess if they damage the lock gate.
Lakercapt
Posts: 554
Joined: July 19, 2010, 4:51 pm

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Lakercapt »

Second, isn't the Seaway at least partially responsible for the two trailing ships being delayed ? Knowing the weather forecast and how fast the ice was building up, they could've locked the smaller ships through first. Just my thoughts..[/quote]

In my case this is what happened, the smaller ships were allowed to go before us and we eventually became last although we were in the system before them. A lesson they must have forgotten about!!
Guest

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote:The risk of ships being stuck in the Seaway for the winter has been a much higher than ship operators have appreciated. There has been close calls as to whether ships would be stuck a number of times over the last 20 years and often they've been saved by a break in the cold weather.
When the Seaway started allowing 78ft beam in the late 1990's they initially had a policy that was going to restrict the 78ft beam to ice free conditions, but the shipping companies all ignored those concerns and built to the max.
Just another case of those in the office being obvious to the realities of the job.
FedNav should be held responsible for the delays to the 2 ships astern of the Biscay. They're small enough they would have had no significant problem.
Interesting perspective but I have a couple of points in rebuttal. First, building to a 78' beam is a risk worth taking since the conditions we're seeing now don't happen very often. Perhaps a rule requiring ships at that beam to be responsible for delays to other ships and ice-breaking/rescue costs would partially address their hubris (if that's what it is). Second, isn't the Seaway at least partially responsible for the two trailing ships being delayed ? Knowing the weather forecast and how fast the ice was building up, they could've locked the smaller ships through first. Just my thoughts....
Lakercapt
Posts: 554
Joined: July 19, 2010, 4:51 pm

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Lakercapt »

I remember being the last boat to clear the seaway one year when the ice conditions were bad. At St.Lambert lock there had been build up in the ice on the lock walls. We, like the fed boat could not get in the lock. Had to back out and they brought in payloaders to scrape the walls clear of ice. It took some time as the ice scraped off had to be flushed clear before we entered. This was on a 76ft boat on December 24th so why a broader boat was allowed to transit when ice was so bad would be a question I would want answered.
Guest

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Guest »

The risk of ships being stuck in the Seaway for the winter has been a much higher than ship operators have appreciated. There has been close calls as to whether ships would be stuck a number of times over the last 20 years and often they've been saved by a break in the cold weather.
When the Seaway started allowing 78ft beam in the late 1990's they initially had a policy that was going to restrict the 78ft beam to ice free conditions, but the shipping companies all ignored those concerns and built to the max.
Just another case of those in the office being obvious to the realities of the job.
FedNav should be held responsible for the delays to the 2 ships astern of the Biscay. They're small enough they would have had no significant problem.
Denny

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Denny »

Hate to say it but, at the rate they're going so far it will be Spring when things get cleared up over on the Seaway hopefully it will be before then though. However, I just seen and heard today on our local Detroit stations that more Arctic Cold will be invading us yet again this weekend and the East Coast is preparing for a signifcant weather event with lots of snow, wind and ice! They're saying the winds could reach almost hurricane force and voloicty sort of like that Super Storm Sandy from a few years ago if anyone knows what I am referring to here? Sorry to go off subject on a cold day. Also with today being January 3rd and the Seaway Traffic Jam as well being what it is, we have now officially set an all time record for now at least to the longest and latest closing date ever as to when the Seaway will shut down for the 2017-18 shipping season! The previous longest date was on January 2, 1985 and now this has surpassed that and more. Just wonder when and how much longer this will last? Definitely one for the record books this year!
Fritz

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Fritz »

Pacific Huron got underway this morning about 8:30 AM EST, went up to Bartlett Point west of where she grounded, turned around and is now heading downriver. to join the drama at Snell Lock. Federal Biscay still stuck halfway into Snell Lock with three other salties anchored behind her as far up as Wilson hill.
Denny

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Denny »

I don't think they are keeping the Pacific Huron here this winter but I could be wrong on that as well? What you are saying as far as this being historic this year is correct as I had posted on another thread What was the latest ever closing date for the Seaway and a Guest answered that it was January 2, 1985 up to that point at the time the latest closing date of the Seaway. So, right now at least 2017 has tied the 1985 mark for the longest and latest Seaway closing date but, I'm sure that this may be broken and a new record set after today's date! I also mentioned as well in another thread that it will be interesting to see how this works out come Spring 2018? If we have a cold winter that "drags out and on for a while, then we could be looking at lots of ice come Spring!" It could be a real mess come Spring and as I said in my previous thread, just remember a few years ago that the first boat at the Soo the Callaway did not even get there until the first week in April and you also had many ships going in for repairs from damages in the ice. I'm sure the owners will be watching the situation very cautiously to not take any risks or chances in any serious ice come Spring and if it gets bad enough, the Canadians may have to bring in the Big Guns like they've done in the past to help break it up come Spring!
Guest

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Guest »

What's happening in the Seaway is historic.
AIS is still showing 2 at the American locks, 2 at anchor above and the Pacific Huron above the narrows. Some of these ships were in position to transits the Seaway more than a week ago and they didn't move much in the last 24hrs. More cold weather to come. Are they there for the winter. Are they keeping the Pacific Huron in place so they can turn her around to winter at a lakes port?
Guest

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Guest »

The Evans Spirit did depart on the 28th for below the seaway but turned around near Long Point & returned to Toledo. Presumably because of the delays in the seaway.
Guest

Re: Seaway Traffic Jam

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote:Not to go off subject here, but I notice some interesting transits as well. Florence Spirit of McKeil is headed for Ashtabula and I'm not sure where she will lay up. Baie St. Paul was supposed to lay up in Quebec after unloading but now is headed to Nanticoke so perhaps will lay up in Port Colborne, Erie or Windsor? Just my thoughts here.
Rumor Mill States: Erie could play host 6 to 7 ships for layup this year.
Solid possibilities:
1.) Algoma Hansa
2.) Dorothy Ann/Pathfinder

Moderate chances:
3.) St Clair
4.) Presque Isle
>>both vessels are currently at the mercy of weather and distance<<

Other possibiities:
5.) CSL may be planning on leaving 2+ vessels here
6.) Longshot- Adam E Cornelius may be brought to Erie if Algoma plans on sailing her... she is overdue for a 5-year.
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