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 Post subject: Re: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 28, 2017, 8:37 am 

Joined: March 16, 2010, 2:03 pm
Posts: 293
Good morning Jon Paul, regarding unloading in Lorain at the B&O lakefront dock, there weren't any huletts there. The 1961 ShipMasters Directory lists three Brown Electric unloaders with ten ton clam shells. As a "kid" I often to Lorain to see dad's boat either in layup at the old B&O coal dock ~1977 pic~ or to make a trip.
The first trip was 1955 on the brand new George M. Humphrey.
The rigs at the Lakefront ore dock were odd looking to me. They weren't like the Hoover Masons at the PY&A in Ashtabula, but were very heavy looking in appearance. . On the Republic C4 cargo routes, often when loading for Ashtabula, they would do a split load of ore between Duluth and Two Harbors for the Union dock in Bula.
Happy New Year! Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 27, 2017, 11:13 pm 

Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm
Posts: 89
garbear wrote:
Jon Paul-You mentioned the C-4's had to partially unload at either the C & P dock or Lorain. Did you ever unload in Lorain? If so, do you have any photos unloading there? Went by that dock a few times on the Clarke going to the shipyard, but never saw a boat at the dock. Thanks.


We only unloaded there a couple times at the hullet dock in the outer harbor and I don't think I have any photos.
I believe the layup dock we used with the Thompson I posted was the old B & O Dock up river.


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 27, 2017, 9:04 pm 
Jon Paul-You mentioned the C-4's had to partially unload at either the C & P dock or Lorain. Did you ever unload in Lorain? If so, do you have any photos unloading there? Went by that dock a few times on the Clarke going to the shipyard, but never saw a boat at the dock. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 27, 2017, 7:49 pm 

Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm
Posts: 89
I posted some photos on the thread;
Historical Perspective in Photos


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 27, 2017, 3:36 pm 
[quote="Jon PaulThe C-4 triplets were built for Nicholson - Universal Steamship Co and Managed by Troy Browning Steamship Company (1951-52)
They were sold to Republic Steel in 1952 with Browning still managing.
In 1957 Wilson Marine Transit took over management until 1972 when the 3 were put on Bare Boat Charter (Republic Owners)to Cleveland Cliffs who held the Republic ore contract.

The Louis McHenry Howe, Mount Mansfield and Scott E Land were C4-S-A4 Class cargo ships taken from the James River Reserve Fleet in 1951. The reconstruction was in stages with Maryland Drydock joining the remains stern portions to a new forebody built at Ingalls Shipbuilding in Alabama. Then they were towed individually up the Mississippi and connecting waterways to American Shipbuilding in S. Chicago were they were completed for Great Lakes service in 1951.
Tom M Girdler (Howe), Charles M White (Mansfield) and Troy H Browning (Land) were built to the length of 600' to accommodate their main customer, Republic Steel, whose 2 main steel mills were on the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland and 1 on the Calumet River just up the river from where they were put in service in S Chicago.
The 3 C-4's were able to load to 25' on the Calumet but limited to 22' on the Cuyahoga necessitating the lightering of cargo to that depth usually at Cleveland C & P and occasionally Lorain, then proceeding upriver to either Upper or Lower Republic Plants.
In 1955 the Troy H Browning's name was changed to Thomas F Patton.

Though there were rumors of lengthening and conversions the fact that Republic Steel retained ownership throughout and that they had no interest in putting any money into them ultimately ended those discussions.

I will post some more C-4 photos later today.[/quote]

Thanks Jon Paul and others for the details and background info. Lake boats are very interesting to look at but knowing their story adds the colour and dimension that makes this hobby so absorbing.


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 27, 2017, 1:05 pm 

Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm
Posts: 89
The C-4 triplets were built for Nicholson - Universal Steamship Co and Managed by Troy Browning Steamship Company (1951-52)
They were sold to Republic Steel in 1952 with Browning still managing.
In 1957 Wilson Marine Transit took over management until 1972 when the 3 were put on Bare Boat Charter (Republic Owners)to Cleveland Cliffs who held the Republic ore contract.

The Louis McHenry Howe, Mount Mansfield and Scott E Land were C4-S-A4 Class cargo ships taken from the James River Reserve Fleet in 1951. The reconstruction was in stages with Maryland Drydock joining the remains stern portions to a new forebody built at Ingalls Shipbuilding in Alabama. Then they were towed individually up the Mississippi and connecting waterways to American Shipbuilding in S. Chicago were they were completed for Great Lakes service in 1951.
Tom M Girdler (Howe), Charles M White (Mansfield) and Troy H Browning (Land) were built to the length of 600' to accommodate their main customer, Republic Steel, whose 2 main steel mills were on the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland and 1 on the Calumet River just up the river from where they were put in service in S Chicago.
The 3 C-4's were able to load to 25' on the Calumet but limited to 22' on the Cuyahoga necessitating the lightering of cargo to that depth usually at Cleveland C & P and occasionally Lorain, then proceeding upriver to either Upper or Lower Republic Plants.
In 1955 the Troy H Browning's name was changed to Thomas F Patton.

Though there were rumors of lengthening and conversions the fact that Republic Steel retained ownership throughout and that they had no interest in putting any money into them ultimately ended those discussions.

I will post some more C-4 photos later today.


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 27, 2017, 9:02 am 
All three ships were built for Republic Steel to haul iron ore to Republic steel mills on the Cuyahoga river in Cleveland. Back then, the largest ship that could travel that far up the river were 600 feet maximum.

There was some talk in the 1960s of installing a new mid-body to increase their capacity to 28,000 tons, along with self-unloading equipment.


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 26, 2017, 11:57 pm 
I've really taken a liking to the three boats in the Girdler class. They have a very unusual look that is quite attractive. Unfortunately they had relatively short careers on the lakes. Why weren't they built longer ? They could've been towed up the Mississippi in two sections of maximum length. Their high horsepower engines could've handled a larger boat. TIA


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 3, 2017, 12:52 pm 
Jon Paul wrote:
Starting Monday I will begin posting photos from my collection. They will span a time frame starting in the 1930's (mostly taken by my late father) up to the past few years.
In regards to info on my time on the C M White, a search on this site will bring up dozens of posts including photos.


Jon Paul, looking forward to your collection.


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 3, 2017, 7:43 am 
Starting Monday I will begin posting photos from my collection. They will span a time frame starting in the 1930's (mostly taken by my late father) up to the past few years.
In regards to info on my time on the C M White, a search on this site will bring up dozens of posts including photos.


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 2, 2017, 7:14 pm 
Thank you Jon Paul and any other stories you'd like to share! I liked the triplets and also thought they were handsome boats. Sadly they were sent away early in my boatwatching.

Alex


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 2, 2017, 7:27 am 
I honestly have no idea Alex. All 3 were built off the same plan, had identical power plants (10k steam turbine) and hull design. The only appreciable difference was the Patton never had a bow thruster installed. Because of that she was the first laid up and the last to fit out. Cheif Eng John Abbott who had been CE on all 3 boats and was responsible for getting the beautiful triple chime steam whistle off the J E Upson installed on the Patton couldn't give me an answer either. Ric Starcke who had been mate on all three, said the White was faster, could haul more tonnage and was a better heavy weather boat than her 2 sisters.
I think the speed factor had more to due with who her skipper was. Capt Peo who I believe was Captain during the unofficial "races" was known as a hard pressing no holds barred kind of guy.
In that same vein, Capt Ray Long who was on the White most of the time I was on her, saw the Whites speed as an asset to be used. Mates and us wheelsman were to keep a constant ear tuned to the radio, monitoring who was going where. If throwing on a few extra nozzles for more speed meant getting ahead of a slower boat entering a river system or beating them to a loading or unloading port then that's what we did.


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 Post subject: Jon Paul, Charles M. White
Unread postPosted: December 1, 2017, 8:57 pm 
Hi Jon your former boat, the White, seemed to be the fastest of the triplets, at least the one that was written most for being the fastest of the three. Were there reasons ever said as to why?

Thanks, Alex


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