Ship Operators Explore Autonomous Sailing

[Shirtofgreen]

Weather is our biggest obstacle to overcome. Right now we often lose satellite communications during periods of heavy rain, fog, cloud cover, snow, etc. As all of the new navigation systems are based on GPS technology & this link to the satellites is still the weak link. Having shore based relay cell towers is also subject to weather conditions. In vehicles now using adaptive cruise control and lane change warning technologies they suffer from rain, snow and fog signal loss. This scares me when people talk about driverless vehicles. Lose the signal the the vehicle loses control, killing people.

When an accident happens now we go to great lengths to find the cause, sometimes even laying blame on humans and issuing fines and other forms of punishment. The future will have us
blaming software and hardware developers I guess.

Big picture, GPS should be secondary to other means such as an accurate gyro. Can't hack the gyro. Even in the instance of "phoning home", that defeats the purpose of autonomy. Going back to the previous statements about autonomous helicopters... It lost comms, knew where it was and where it needed to go and could act accordingly. Having a person per craft to monitor wouldn't even be completely necessary.

Playing devils advocate... Let's say a ship comes to a scenario it doesn't know. Let's say GPS is out, gyro is down, navigation beacons are dead. It'd still be cheaper to get a pilot (or something along that idea) to the ship.

[Guest]

When an accident happens now we go to great lengths to find the cause, sometimes even laying blame on humans and issuing fines and other forms of punishment. The future will have us
blaming software and hardware developers I guess.

A totally autonomous vehicle would seem to open up some interesting liability cases in the courts it would seem in the case of an accident.

[Guest]

Weather is our biggest obstacle to overcome. Right now we often lose satellite communications during periods of heavy rain, fog, cloud cover, snow, etc. As all of the new navigation systems are based on GPS technology & this link to the satellites is still the weak link. Having shore based relay cell towers is also subject to weather conditions. In vehicles now using adaptive cruise control and lane change warning technologies they suffer from rain, snow and fog signal loss. This scares me when people talk about driverless vehicles. Lose the signal the the vehicle loses control, killing people.

When an accident happens now we go to great lengths to find the cause, sometimes even laying blame on humans and issuing fines and other forms of punishment. The future will have us
blaming software and hardware developers I guess.

[Shirtofgreen]

Controlling a large vessel is a totally different category. For one, who does damage control when cargo shifts or the ship catches on fire? Then there is the fine maneuvering to go alongside a dock. And yes, they will be targeted by hackers.

.

Isolating systems from hackers, not difficult at all. Automated fire control systems? These are already found in data centers, and they've made great strides in targeted fire control instead of soaking everything. Shifting cargo? How often does human intervention actually assist in that? Who's to say a machine couldn't position the cargo in a more efficient and stable manner than humans?

And the whole "fine maneuvering" argument, truckers say the same thing. What you're controlling is indifferent. I worked on gyro systems that kept within 1" of target in all seas only needing an external fix every 2 weeks. That was early 90s technology. Late 2000s technology I watched unmanned helicopters lose communication to server and _still_ make it back to its moving flight deck of roughly 25x35ft.


Technology is here guys

Easy to stop hackers??? LOL.. just ask the 550 milion,, YES, 550 million or more past guests of MARRIOT hotels if their info was secure from hackers. This time the online thieves even got passport info.. our military faces hacking threats everyday . do you really think cost conscious shipping companies are going to install the best anti hack systems ans keep it updated? I doubt it. Sure, the technology will make it possible to do this. I believe Japan has a super tanker operating on mostly computers but they still have a skeleton crew aboard. This total automation technology that in some ways , is marvelous, just brings about a new set of problems and costs rather than the ones encountered with human employees. Finally, I have been an independent trucker for 38 years. Yes, they can make a computer drive the truck down the road and even program it to operate in close spaces. What does it do when the blizzard stops it in its tracks on I 80 in the middle of Wyoming in Jan.? They will still need that driver in the vehicle, and, no, he won’t work any cheaper.. sailors will still be onboard vessels no matter how great the technology

The Marriott, target, home depot incidences are completely irrelevant. These systems were left completely open to known vulnerabilities, despite previous warnings, and refused to heed those warnings. Major dollars don't have to be spent to secure things, just smart people. Throwing money doesn't always fix issues. Fixing issues fixes issues.

A blizzard is completely irrelevant to the situation. That computer could most likely better analyze real time weather data and properly decide whether it can make it, or stay put. That technology is already semi in use in your Google maps GPS for several years. That could alleviate the traffic jams from motorists being bullish in their travels.

[Guest]

Ships with total automation and a small crew overseeing is definitely part of the future.

[Guest]

My late son was a certified avionics technician (engine, body and wiring system). His biggest concern, with industry studies to support him, was the probability that terrorists can hack into the computer of any given large passenger plane and take control from hundreds of miles away. Terrorism aside, how likely would the Hudson River incident turned out as successfully had automation, rather than a skilled pilot & copilot been at the controls?

Thank you bookworm!! My thoughts exactly about the Hudson River airliner example. You just beat me to the post. Automation and technology is great, but just because something can be done does not mean it should be or is the best for safety and security. Without Sully at the controls,, all would have perished in the icy Hudson that day. I am all in favor of technology but the human factor should never be dismissed.

I agree with that in that specific circumstance. But what would you say to all the 100's of crashes caused directly by human error? Playing devils advocate I guess...because I do not think there is one right way vs the other. We will see a mix of automation and limited manpower. I work in the aviation industry....I can tell you modern avionics and flight systems have saved countless disasters. I do believe though in my lifetime we could have single pilot airliners. Many small corporate jets are already single pilot certified.

[Guest]

Computers make black or white decisions where humans can make for lack of better word grey decisions .

[Colin]

Ok friend, you win, lol. Computers and robots are perfect and humans are just dummies. WOW!

Computers are certainly not perfect and anyone who tries to claim that (an argument I have not heard myself) is probably just trying to troll you.

As to all Humans being dummies I think the percentage is far lower then 100%, but all make mistakes.

An automated system needs to be safer then a human at the same task not perfect.

[Guest]

..I am all in favor of technology but the human factor should never be dismissed.

Agreed, of course most accidents are caused by humans making mistakes.

It is fully possible the Sully was better able to crash land that aircraft then an hypothetical fully automated plane. However fully automated planes would avoid far more crashes that are caused by human mistakes.

That is of course only applicable to a system that has reached the the fully automated stage with nothing has actually done yet at any scale.

I have studied many aircraft mishaps over the years and there is no doubt that automated systems have reduced pilot workload and increased safety. However, the increasing reliance on such systems have resulted in some accidents, including some minor incidents not necessarily known by the general public. From my examinations, I believe that there is no evidence to support the concept of pilotless commercial aircraft. One thing that gets lost in the Hudson River water landing is that this incident began over a densely populated area. In addition to their passengers, the pilots had an equal responsibility to protect the lives of people on the ground. Luckily, there was a nearby river to pull off the crash landing, which was itself aided to a significant extent by the A320's flight envelope protection system.

While automated ships may work in certain circumstances, I cannot see them being employed along every trade route. As in the aviation field, however, such systems will likely lead to reduces crew sizes (aircraft of the 1950s often had four flight crew, today two is the standard).

While computers are far more efficient than humans in processing raw data, they are poor decision makers.

[Guest]

About 10 years ago the International Maritime Organisation (IMO) approved the trial for certain nations to allow ships to operate with only one person in the wheelhouse at night. After a few years of the trial there were enough concerns that they canceled the trial program.
So it continues that 2 persons are required in a ships wheelhouse in hours of darkness in all nations around the world that are signatory to IMO SOLAS.

[Guest]

Ok friend, you win, lol. Computers and robots are perfect and humans are just dummies. WOW!

[Colin]

...I am all in favor of technology but the human factor should never be dismissed.

Agreed, of course most accidents are caused by humans making mistakes.

It is fully possible the Sully was better able to crash land that aircraft then an hypothetical fully automated plane. However fully automated planes would avoid far more crashes that are caused by human mistakes.

That is of course only applicable to a system that has reached the the fully automated stage with nothing has actually done yet at any scale.

[Guest]

My late son was a certified avionics technician (engine, body and wiring system). His biggest concern, with industry studies to support him, was the probability that terrorists can hack into the computer of any given large passenger plane and take control from hundreds of miles away. Terrorism aside, how likely would the Hudson River incident turned out as successfully had automation, rather than a skilled pilot & copilot been at the controls?

Thank you bookworm!! My thoughts exactly about the Hudson River airliner example. You just beat me to the post. Automation and technology is great, but just because something can be done does not mean it should be or is the best for safety and security. Without Sully at the controls,, all would have perished in the icy Hudson that day. I am all in favor of technology but the human factor should never be dismissed.

[Bookworm]

My late son was a certified avionics technician (engine, body and wiring system). His biggest concern, with industry studies to support him, was the probability that terrorists can hack into the computer of any given large passenger plane and take control from hundreds of miles away. Terrorism aside, how likely would the Hudson River incident turned out as successfully had automation, rather than a skilled pilot & copilot been at the controls?

[Guest]

Yes, it will happen. Trying to understand why is a different matter! Why is it so important to put people out of work? Driverless taxis, driverless trucks, unmanned ships, reduced crews, automated assembly lines; these are all designed to boost profits only. One day there will be no one left to buy products as everyone will be unemployed.

What would really help is automated & unmanned boardrooms.

Although I agree with you in that there seems to be a drive by upper management to produce high profits by any means necessary, what is missing here is the number of jobs created in other fields to support new technology and ways of doing business. For instance, robotics may have reduced many direct labor jobs but it has also opened up jobs for those programming and maintaining the equipment. Meanwhile, the increasing reliance on international trade has created employment in the logistics and supply chain management field. Unfortunately many of these new jobs require some level of advanced education.

I apologize if this goes off topic, but I would like to share the following story.

During the late 1970s, I was attending middle school in Lakewood, Washington, while my father was posted to the Fort Lewis Army Base. At the time, the greater Seattle area was going through a hard time with one its major employers, Boeing, laying off many of its workers much like we see in Michigan from time to time in the automotive industry. I had a 5th grade teacher that had lost his job a year or so earlier. One day, he told us students something that I believe is one of the best pieces of advice I had ever received when he said, "an education is yours, and no one can ever take it away. Don't miss out on one nor believe it will never matter." Expanding upon his story it turned out that he had earned a college degree after graduating high school but at the time Boeing was paying wages for general labor positions much higher than he could have earned with his degree. He felt extremely fortunate to have a college degree to fall back upon when he was laid off.

I guess the moral to the story is that there is a personal responsibility to maintain pace with an evolving business climate especially when living in a society in which education is readily available to meet these challenges.

[shirtofgreen]

.

Isolating systems from hackers, not difficult at all. Automated fire control systems? These are already found in data centers, and they've made great strides in targeted fire control instead of soaking everything. Shifting cargo? How often does human intervention actually assist in that? Who's to say a machine couldn't position the cargo in a more efficient and stable manner than humans?

And the whole "fine maneuvering" argument, truckers say the same thing. What you're controlling is indifferent. I worked on gyro systems that kept within 1" of target in all seas only needing an external fix every 2 weeks. That was early 90s technology. Late 2000s technology I watched unmanned helicopters lose communication to server and _still_ make it back to its moving flight deck of roughly 25x35ft.


Technology is here guys

Easy to stop hackers??? LOL.. just ask the 550 milion,, YES, 550 million or more past guests of MARRIOT hotels if their info was secure from hackers. This time the online thieves even got passport info.. our military faces hacking threats everyday . do you really think cost conscious shipping companies are going to install the best anti hack systems ans keep it updated? I doubt it. Sure, the technology will make it possible to do this. I believe Japan has a super tanker operating on mostly computers but they still have a skeleton crew aboard. This total automation technology that in some ways , is marvelous, just brings about a new set of problems and costs rather than the ones encountered with human employees. Finally, I have been an independent trucker for 38 years. Yes, they can make a computer drive the truck down the road and even program it to operate in close spaces. What does it do when the blizzard stops it in its tracks on I 80 in the middle of Wyoming in Jan.? They will still need that driver in the vehicle, and, no, he won’t work any cheaper.. sailors will still be onboard vessels no matter how great the technology

instances such as the Target, Home Depot, and Marriot hackings weren't particularly hackings of intelligence as they were absolute failures in the security of the companies. Take Experian for instance, most of their systems had default passwords, or no passwords at all.

The military, utilities, banks face threats daily. Is that an intelligent argument against using computer-based weapon systems, SCADA control for gas and water companies, or banking apps for your phone?

In regards to my previous comment...the vessel in which the autonomy is installed is irrelevant. What does a snow storm, or heat wave, or flood, or leaves falling have to do with a difference in handling between a computer and a human? Can a computer not sit there and block traffic just as well as a human? Or, conversely, could it not be bullish like a human and use real-time weather information to determine if its worth while to keep going?

[Guest]

Easy to stop hackers?? LOL.. just ask the 550 milion,, YES, 550 million or more past guests of MARRIOT hotels if their info was secure from hackers..

The Marriott breach is hardly a relevant comparison as their system would be (necessarily) accessible via the internet. I am pretty sure no one is suggesting the the connections to autonomous ships be internet based, they would likely be a proprietary closed system. Not immune to security issues, of course, but hardly a major factor on whether the unmanned ship is viable or not.

I have a feeling it would be internet based, all in the interest of saving money and avoiding expensive infrastructure. That's the way pretty much everything is going, even stuff that shouldn't be connected to the internet.

[Colin]

Centuries past, they knew the importance of meaningful employment with fair compensation. Today the boardroom chops through those ideals like a steamroller in a cornfield.

Could you explain what you are referring to?

Compensating and treating workers fairly is a fairly recent shift in the way the world works.

[Guest]

"No flying machine will ever fly from New York to Paris…[because] no known motor can run at the requisite speed for four days without stopping." -Orville Wright

Technology will indeed be able to someday make autonomous sailing a reality...its already here

[Kory]

What would really help is automated & unmanned boardrooms.

Centuries past, they knew the importance of meaningful employment with fair compensation. Today the boardroom chops through those ideals like a steamroller in a cornfield.