Boatnerd Discussion Forum

William Lafferty wrote:

Wasn't the conversion of the Henry Ford II into a self-unloader a direct result of the McNamara being retired on this route?

Primarily. The McNamara's innards were in very poor shape from the coal buckets at Dearborn, and, as opposed to 1962, there were no other comparable vessels with which to replace it. Ford wanted quicker turn-around time at Dearborn because of limited coal storage capacity and increasing raw material demand that taxed Ford's shore-based unloading equipment, so the conversion of the Henry Ford II was pursued.

A footnote to Mr. Lafferty's post, the Henny was also due for some steel renewal in the holds at the time so it was chosen over the Benny to get the self-unloader.

Wasn't the conversion of the Henry Ford II into a self-unloader a direct result of the McNamara being retired on this route?

Primarily. The McNamara's innards were in very poor shape from the coal buckets at Dearborn, and, as opposed to 1962, there were no other comparable vessels with which to replace it. Ford wanted quicker turn-around time at Dearborn because of limited coal storage capacity and increasing raw material demand that taxed Ford's shore-based unloading equipment, so the conversion of the Henry Ford II was pursued.

A J wrote:

Jon Paul wrote: Fords Robert S McNamara didn't even have hatch covers and they ran coal from Toledo to Dearborn.

The deck of the McNamara was rebuilt to be one long open hold. The hatches and deck in between them was removed and 6 foot high walls were installed around the perimeter of the open hold to provide more capacity and yes, the McNamara was restricted between the Rouge Plant and Toledo.

Wasn't the conversion of the Henry Ford II into a self-unloader a direct result of the McNamara being retired on this route?

Jon Paul wrote: Fords Robert S McNamara didn't even have hatch covers and they ran coal from Toledo to Dearborn.

The deck of the McNamara was rebuilt to be one long open hold. The hatches and deck in between them was removed and 6 foot high walls were installed around the perimeter of the open hold to provide more capacity and yes, the McNamara was restricted between the Rouge Plant and Toledo.

In the 90's we used to run deck loads out of Toledo to Zug Island, coal piled right up no hatches on. We used to also run with Summer clamps also the 4 corners and middles. Don't see that anymore either.

Jon Paul wrote:

Jared wrote:I recall legislation being passed after the John Boland (canaller) sank in Lake Erie during the 40s, that said that a vessel could not ship on with her hatches being open or cargo exceeding the hold.

Also evidence shows that the HB Smith broke in two at the surface, so her hatches not being secured is kinda irrelevant.

On the TV show Dive Detectives they did a test on the Norris or the Montrealis that sprayed 30,000 gallons of water on a partially secured hatch, and it leaked very badly. On a fully secured hatch some water did come through but it was very manageable by pumps.

I wonder about the Henry Steinbrenner and her tarpped hatches giving way in a relatively moderate storm.

The hatches on the Henry Steinbrenner were not tarped.

Thanks for the correction Jon Paul, I need to do a little more research.

Back in the 60's-70's you could see boats such as the Sylvania, Consumers Power, etc. running up and down the rivers between Erie and Huron with open hatches overflowing with coal. When I sailed for USS/GLF we would leave port, but not always, before securing the deck out on open water. The mission was always to have the deck secured before leaving port but there were times it didn't happen. One summer we painted the cargo hold down to the tank tops with at least 4 or 5 hatches open, while loaded of course, and generally in fair weather. You'll see salties running up light with their hatches cracked all the time airing it out.

Mr Link wrote:

Syd bc wrote:I remember seeing ships on Lake Erie runs and Toledo to Detroit With all hatches open Coal loaded up above the hatch combings Deck loads we called it

I believe I read somewhere that they had special permission from the US Coast Guard for that.

I remember when I started sailing when we were in the lower Detroit River I'd see the Robert S. McNamara hauling coal from Toledo to Rouge no hatches, coal piled above the coamings.

Also would see the Canadian self-unloaders leave Conneaut with coal piled high, no hatches on, heading to the Nanticoke power plant.

Mr Link wrote:

Syd bc wrote:I remember seeing ships on Lake Erie runs and Toledo to Detroit With all hatches open Coal loaded up above the hatch combings Deck loads we called it

I believe I read somewhere that they had special permission from the US Coast Guard for that.

I do believe that a special exemption was made for coal shuttles from Toledo to the Detroit area.
Fords Robert S McNamara didn't even have hatch covers and they ran coal from Toledo to Dearborn. I saw the Sylvania run coal from Toledo to Conners Creek and sometimes Trenton with coal piled 5-6 feet above the hatch coamings in the 70's.

The requirements for operating between Toledo and Detroit with open hatches are listed in the USCG Load Line Policy Manual as follows:

Great Lakes bulk carriers operating between Toledo, OH and Port Huron, MI.
Route: between Toledo, OH and Port Huron, MI
1. Applicability: Great Lakes bulk carriers carrying coal. or bulk cargo of similar density, may operate with open hatches.
2. Voyage limits: Toledo, Ohio and Detroit, Michigan
3. Markings: Great Lakes markings
4. Stability: No additional requirements
5. Strength: No additional requirements
6. Freeboard: Vessel's depth to the weather deck must be at least 31 feet, and must maintain at least 8 feet of freeboard
Great Lakes Load Line Certificate with the following notation: "At the discretion of the Master, this vessel may operate without hatch covers between the limits of Toledo, Ohio to Detroit, Michigan including Monroe, Michigan from 1 April to 31October."
7. LL certificate:
8. Operating restrictions: (i) Fair weather only;
(ii) Between April 1 and October 31, inclusive;
(iii) Cargo and tank vessels above 300 feet in length may be loaded to their intermediate marks between October 1 and April 30 inclusive; and
(iv) Vessels above 400 feet in length may load to their summer marks between September 16 and April 30, inclusive.

Jared wrote:I recall legislation being passed after the John Boland (canaller) sank in Lake Erie during the 40s, that said that a vessel could not ship on with her hatches being open or cargo exceeding the hold.

Also evidence shows that the HB Smith broke in two at the surface, so her hatches not being secured is kinda irrelevant.

On the TV show Dive Detectives they did a test on the Norris or the Montrealis that sprayed 30,000 gallons of water on a partially secured hatch, and it leaked very badly. On a fully secured hatch some water did come through but it was very manageable by pumps.

I wonder about the Henry Steinbrenner and her tarpped hatches giving way in a relatively moderate storm.

The hatches on the Henry Steinbrenner were not tarped.

Syd bc wrote:I remember seeing ships on Lake Erie runs and Toledo to Detroit With all hatches open Coal loaded up above the hatch combings Deck loads we called it

I believe I read somewhere that they had special permission from the US Coast Guard for that.

I recall legislation being passed after the John Boland (canaller) sank in Lake Erie during the 40s, that said that a vessel could not ship on with her hatches being open or cargo exceeding the hold.

Also evidence shows that the HB Smith broke in two at the surface, so her hatches not being secured is kinda irrelevant.

On the TV show Dive Detectives they did a test on the Norris or the Montrealis that sprayed 30,000 gallons of water on a partially secured hatch, and it leaked very badly. On a fully secured hatch some water did come through but it was very manageable by pumps.

I wonder about the Henry Steinbrenner and her tarpped hatches giving way in a relatively moderate storm.

I remember seeing ships on Lake Erie runs and Toledo to Detroit With all hatches open Coal loaded up above the hatch combings Deck loads we called it

Guest wrote:The Montrealais was upbound on Lake Michigan on October 21, 1993 when 5 hatch covers went over the side and 4 damaged when she rolled as a strong cold front generated high winds and seas. Her hatches were open so that the holds could be cleaned as she had unloaded an iron ore cargo at a south Lake Michigan port.

I saw a photo taken after the fact. Could've been a lot more serious.

The Montrealais was upbound on Lake Michigan on October 21, 1993 when 5 hatch covers went over the side and 4 damaged when she rolled as a strong cold front generated high winds and seas. Her hatches were open so that the holds could be cleaned as she had unloaded an iron ore cargo at a south Lake Michigan port.

Guest wrote:

Guest wrote:It's USCG & ABS requirement that all hatch covers be secured prior to leaving port. This has to do with stability and to reduce flooding potential.

I guess you'll have to explain this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW7pkiZKI1Y

From the description in the video and the upload date it is possible that this video was taken during December 2018. This video of the Blough leaving the harbor without its hatches secured during the winter in my mind proves that ships often leave port without all of their hatches secured even during times of year in which storms are common. In know this won't make me a popular guy with some out there, but I believe that after viewing this there could be some validity to the idea that some of the Fitzgerald's hatches were not properly secured on its last voyage. Is it possible that the crew did not secure the hatches before entering Lake Superior and could the job not have been done as good as it could have been? Regardless, without proof of this either way it cannot be accepted or dismissed in an impartial examination of the subject. I believe the Henry B. Smith is also known to have left Marquette in 1913 without having all of its hatches secured before foundering.

We’d leave the Soo headed for Thunder Bay All hatches open It was a rush to hose the hatch combings and get them closed before we got out into Whitefish bay Always a big clear up after unloading coal and then going for grain

Guest wrote:

Guest wrote:It's USCG & ABS requirement that all hatch covers be secured prior to leaving port. This has to do with stability and to reduce flooding potential.

I guess you'll have to explain this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW7pkiZKI1Y

The requirement remains the same. All hatches are to be secured before leaving the breakwall unless the COTP has approved otherwise. Now if the captain in the video was willing to risk his license just to save time, that's his decision.

garbear wrote:

garbear wrote:

srh7934 wrote:While viewing the Duluth canal cam I have observed the departing vessels as having their hatch covers in place. Is it a policy that all hatch covers must be secured prior to leaving port or can they be secured as the vessel transits the canal into the open lake?

Don't know if there's a policy, but when I was on the Clarke in the 70s, before and after lengthening, we always had our hatches secured
before we got out to the canal. You must realize it's about 45-60 minutes from the time you depart the ore dock until you get out to the canal and it doesn't take long to secure hatches. If the weather was nice we'd sometimes have our hatch covers all off before we got to the canal inbound.

I should have added we rarely left Two Harbors with all hatches secure. Usually had several hatches left to put on and secure in the lake.

Ditto. There were many times in good weather that we left LS&I in Marquette or Esky with hatches still needing to be closed and clamped.
Also had hatches off for painting headers and coamings or replacing gaskets on the covers themselves but this was usually done in rivers such as St Mary's or St Clair.