Boatnerd Discussion Forum

In 30 years of sailing on the Great Lakes, I have never, until now, heard of nor witnessed any vessel "cutting" the traffic buoy. I'm quite frankly shocked to read that there may be vessels "cutting" the buoy on a routine basis. I would think the 2012 incident on the Michipicoten and the 2018 incident on the Presque Isle would be incentive enough to never leave the buoy to port again.

The coast pilot specifically states:
Duluth Harbor Basin Traffic Lighted Buoy, 0.45 mile southwest of Duluth Harbor South Breakwater Inner Light, should be left to starboard by all
inbound and outbound vessels except those proceeding to or from the docks on the northwest side of the basin, in which cases the regular navigation rules apply.


The traffic buoy is there for a reason. If you cut that buoy and do damage or injure somebody, the liability would be substantial, in addition to the damage to your career.

Guest wrote:CG is on a campaign to remove buoys and expect captains rely on electronics only. They are of the opinion that anything you see out the window is not important.

I'm not a seaman but, that seems pretty dumb. Maybe in the lakes (nothing is really out there) but, in ports you have to watch out so much, bouys would make it alot easier.

I never used traffic buoy out bound as it was not used in my marks for making turn. Found it in the way inbound. I referenced using footers. Tough to watch those accident videos.

CG is on a campaign to remove buoys and expect captains rely on electronics only. They are of the opinion that anything you see out the window is not important. Concentrating on the details of the electronics doesn't leave much time for looking out the window much anyway, particularly in a tight rapidly developing situation like this.
That fairway buoy was there for decades for a reason. It forced captains to decide to go wide or cut the corner. No in between. For most loaded ships going wide was the only reasonable method.

Guest wrote:

Darryl wrote:Wednesday, July 22, 0830. The PI is leaving the Duluth Harbor with a load of taconite pellets. She's going the "long way" this time. They're coming down all the way to the old cement terminal area to line up with the piers before going under the bridge. I can't even remember a shorter loaded boat cutting across the channel before going under the bridge, let alone a 1000 footer. I presume the high water levels make people a little braver.

Michipicoten cuts across the channel all the time.

She's had problems doing that too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcNkOwQtrQg

Another close call.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE-zbDSkPks

I realize this is from 2012, but the traffic buoy is there for a reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcNkOwQtrQg

Darryl wrote:Wednesday, July 22, 0830. The PI is leaving the Duluth Harbor with a load of taconite pellets. She's going the "long way" this time. They're coming down all the way to the old cement terminal area to line up with the piers before going under the bridge. I can't even remember a shorter loaded boat cutting across the channel before going under the bridge, let alone a 1000 footer. I presume the high water levels make people a little braver.

Michipicoten cuts across the channel all the time.

Wednesday, July 22, 0830. The PI is leaving the Duluth Harbor with a load of taconite pellets. She's going the "long way" this time. They're coming down all the way to the old cement terminal area to line up with the piers before going under the bridge. I can't even remember a shorter loaded boat cutting across the channel before going under the bridge, let alone a 1000 footer. I presume the high water levels make people a little braver.

Guest wrote:Yes, it looks like they "cut" the traffic buoy on their way out when they touched. I noticed last night when they left, they went around the traffic buoy.

That happens more than one would think.

Yes, it looks like they "cut" the traffic buoy on their way out when they touched. I noticed last night when they left, they went around the traffic buoy.

hugh3 wrote:They were were traveling too fast for bow thruster to have much effect. Anything over 3 MPH bow thruster not used. Started turn too late or not enough wheel used at start of turn. Should have been lined up for bridge before passing under bridge.

Agree with everything you said Hugh3.

They were were traveling too fast for bow thruster to have much effect. Anything over 3 MPH bow thruster not used. Started turn too late or not enough wheel used at start of turn. Should have been lined up for bridge before passing under bridge.

Presque Isle cleared Duluth at 19:44 for Gary.

It looks to me that she throttled up the starboard engine in reverse trying to swing the bow to starboard and after realizing they weren't going to make the turn throttled up the port engine in reverse as well. I'm thinking she lost the bow thruster.

I don’t believe the ship lost power, all of the ships coming out of the Duluth harbor make their turn farther back so they are lined up straight to go out the piers. The presque isle was making the turn too late and coming in at an angle and trying to swing the stern as she’s already in the canal. It was windy as you can see by the flags in the video. I think the black smoke is from them trying to reverse engines once the captain realized he was going to hit the pier. That is why there seemed to be less bow wake not due to the loss of power. Just my thoughts on the situation.

I have been doing this for almost 2 decades and have never seen someone use a bow thruster on that turn. Too much headway for the thruster to be effective. Short of some kind of mechanical failure... looks like they just didn't do the turn right. You slide to the north a fair bit on that turn... more than just the natural slide of the vessel. And slowing your headway makes the turn more challenging.

Charlie wrote:Hi

If you look at this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQwHN8rShhU

just before she goes out of camera shot the bow wave drops off and she is slowing down.
To me it looks like they lost power. Look at the stacks lots of smoke like your starting a power plant up
It also take a few min to get movement in the aft water from the screws and the bow thruster is used a lot to get and keep in center of canal on way out

Never have been on the PI but i would say loss of power then control of vessel.

Just my 2 cents
charlie

I agree, somewhere there was a loss of power and/or control. Needless to say, the Coast Guard investigation will give us the answer.

It's a testament to the skill of the crews of these boats that this kind of thing doesn't happen more often. Departures are especially tricky, as they have to make a 90 degree turn in a relatively small area and complete the turn so they are lined up to exit through a relatively long and narrow opening. Execute the turn too early or too late and you're not lined up properly to make the exit. Turn too sharp or turn too shallow and you're not lined up. Add to that changing currents in the harbor and changing weather (winds) which can also complicate the turn, pushing you off course. The water flowing through the shipping canal acts like a river, yet it doesn't have a lot of consistency. Sometimes the flow is inwards. Sometimes it is outwards.

Even if you've mastered all of the skills to the do the above correctly in a 1000-foot vessel carrying 60,000 tons of cargo, you are still at the mercy of potential mechanical issues which could leave you with a loss of power or a loss of steering at a critical moment.

Oh yeah, and you also have an audience watching you... sometimes hundreds of people, especially on a weekend afternoon. Many of them are recording on their cell phones. So don't mess it up or your mistake will live on forever on the internet!

Hi

If you look at this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQwHN8rShhU

just before she goes out of camera shot the bow wave drops off and she is slowing down.
To me it looks like they lost power. Look at the stacks lots of smoke like your starting a power plant up
It also take a few min to get movement in the aft water from the screws and the bow thruster is used a lot to get and keep in center of canal on way out

Never have been on the PI but i would say loss of power then control of vessel.

Just my 2 cents
charlie