Boatnerd Discussion Forum

by **William Lafferty** » January 8, 2021, 1:12 pm

I once held out hope that maybe they'd at least restore to a static museum ship like the City of Milwaukee, but it seems the superstructure is far too gone for a nonprofit group to realistically restore it.

When I was designing the Port of Ludington Maritime Museum about a decade ago among other ideas I floated was removing the pilothouse of the Spartan for use as a observation deck and snack bar west of the new Coast Guard station so the Mason County Historical Society could generate some additional revenue. We were told that it was too far gone for even that static use, even then. I would counsel anybody seeking to establish a "museum ship" to immediately disabuse themselves of that notion unless they are Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos.

by **Guest** » January 8, 2021, 8:22 am

Given how long the Spartan has sat idle without any dry docking for survey or below water hull maintenance who knows what lies below the water surface? It sounds like the ship is in somewhat poor, but understandable, condition. I hate to dash anyone's hopes, but I highly doubt that we will ever see it put back into service in any other form than that of a barge. Unless, I'm wrong of course!

by **MilwBob** » January 7, 2021, 10:39 pm

clarkjol wrote:The Spartan was not rebuilt to handle large height trucks such as tractor trailers. Her clearance hei
ght is 18" lower than the re-built Badger. That's part of the reason why Spartan sits and Badger sails.

The Badger was raised in the mid 60s because the C&O wanted to get a contract to haul auto frames, which needed more clearance than a standard box car. They failed to get the contract, so the Spartan did not have the same done to her. As she sits, she can easily accommodate semis.

by JB » January 7, 2021, 6:03 pm

The important thing to consider is that even IF the Spartan's hull and superstructure were in solid enough shape, they'd still have to do far more than just replace the engines to put back into service.

The electrical, HVAC, and all other systems on board the ship would have to be replaced to meet modern USCG standards. They wouldn't be able to grandfather anything.

The cost to rehabilitate the Spartan would likely be nearly equal to that of a new-build vessel.

And, if they were to offer freight-oriented service to anyplace other than Manitowoc, they'd have to build the docking and ground facilities to support it since nearly all the other former carferry slips are long gone.

That would be a LOT of upfront overhead cost. The market for oversized truck freight would have to have a lot of heavy upfront demand to ensure return on investment before any smart investors would put any money into it.

The two most likely futures for Spartan are either barge or scrap. I once held out hope that maybe they'd at least restore to a static museum ship like the City of Milwaukee, but it seems the superstructure is far too gone for a nonprofit group to realistically restore it.

by **Guest** » January 7, 2021, 5:52 pm

Didn't LMC get state grants to redo their terminals a short while ago?

by **Guest** » January 7, 2021, 4:58 pm

Guest wrote:4. This is a non starter for me. The Badger makes money as a tourist site with a fair amount of truck and special load traffic, not to mention passengers! And my Spartan thoughts are more along the line of expanding the brand whereas by doing that to the Badger I think you eliminate her raison d'etre!! The Badger is the the spice where I think the potential is there for the Spartan to be the meat and potatoes, bean counters permitting!

I question your reasoning for your point #4. How profitable is the cross Lake Michigan tourist route? I believe that LMC is a privately held company and therefore not required to issue annual financial statements. So there is no way to use public information to substantiate your claim. I thought I had read somewhere that the company had received subsidies from Michigan and Wisconsin?

You're right. I don't know for sure. Back in 1994 I know they made about 4 million. About 3.5 was put into the boat (repairs, expenses, salaries, etc.) and supposedly each owner at the time (Manglitz, Clingan, Anderson) gave themselves 100 grand a piece. I would assume they do better than that now but I have no figures to prove it.
Another employee found a spreedsheet with that info on it.
If they get any money from the States that's news to me. They used to brag about not taking government money when I worked there. Things may have changed.

by **clarkjol** » January 7, 2021, 12:40 pm

The Spartan was not rebuilt to handle large height trucks such as tractor trailers. Her clearance hei
ght is 18" lower than the re-built Badger. That's part of the reason why Spartan sits and Badger sails.

by **Guest** » January 7, 2021, 9:07 am

4. This is a non starter for me. The Badger makes money as a tourist site with a fair amount of truck and special load traffic, not to mention passengers! And my Spartan thoughts are more along the line of expanding the brand whereas by doing that to the Badger I think you eliminate her raison d'etre!! The Badger is the the spice where I think the potential is there for the Spartan to be the meat and potatoes, bean counters permitting!

I question your reasoning for your point #4. How profitable is the cross Lake Michigan tourist route? I believe that LMC is a privately held company and therefore not required to issue annual financial statements. So there is no way to use public information to substantiate your claim. I thought I had read somewhere that the company had received subsidies from Michigan and Wisconsin?

by **Guest** » January 7, 2021, 4:14 am

Pete in Holland MI wrote:Interesting dialog. But here's something to think about:

1) If there was adequate traffic to run thru the winter, or earlier/later in the current season, why doesn't the current Badger do that? She's built for winter time running.

2) Converting the Spartan to diesel and run it year around? Refer to #1.

3) Converting the Spartan to another barge (PM42?) seems to make sense. Biggest isn't always best. PM41 & Undaunted are a very busy pair. I could see potentially that happen.

4) Convert the Badger to diesel and get rid of a lot of the guest services? The concept of bringing the Badger back to life as a car/truck hauler was based on making the 4 hours more fun. Cabins were eliminated to create theatres, gift shops, museum, video arcade. If you strip a lot of that stuff off, there likely would be a drop in the tourist trade, which is the focus. People look forward to the trip, else, they would make the cross lake trip on a faster Lake Express.

Pete

Fair enough Pete.
1. You could be right on the lack of winter traffic. I don't know for sure. But I'm sure manning can be an issue. Having less crew could help at least in the winter. Also, I think back in the early part of the 2000's they were afraid to run the Badger in winter because her plant was tender with boiler issues and engine difficulties. This may have changed since I left.
2. I suggest the Spartan as a dieselized winter boat for truck traffic & whatever passenger traffic may be available. I thought even if it started out slow it could lead to reliable year round customers. Let the Badger run in the summer for the tourist trade and assuming the lack of demand for 2 of them, lay the Spartan up during the season or have it on standby if the Badger has an issue. this would also allow for a more reliable service.
3. A barge would make some sense as compared to letting it sit around since disco was big!! I have to give you that. I'm thinking in terms of what you might do with the current hull. Note I said hull. I know enough to know you aren't putting that thing back to steam-coal or oil fired!!
4. This is a non starter for me. The Badger makes money as a tourist site with a fair amount of truck and special load traffic, not to mention passengers! And my Spartan thoughts are more along the line of expanding the brand whereas by doing that to the Badger I think you eliminate her raison d'etre!! The Badger is the the spice where I think the potential is there for the Spartan to be the meat and potatoes, bean counters permitting!

by **Pete in Holland MI** » January 6, 2021, 10:53 pm

Interesting dialog. But here's something to think about:

1) If there was adequate traffic to run thru the winter, or earlier/later in the current season, why doesn't the current Badger do that? She's built for winter time running.

2) Converting the Spartan to diesel and run it year around? Refer to #1.

3) Converting the Spartan to another barge (PM42?) seems to make sense. Biggest isn't always best. PM41 & Undaunted are a very busy pair. I could see potentially that happen.

4) Convert the Badger to diesel and get rid of a lot of the guest services? The concept of bringing the Badger back to life as a car/truck hauler was based on making the 4 hours more fun. Cabins were eliminated to create theatres, gift shops, museum, video arcade. If you strip a lot of that stuff off, there likely would be a drop in the tourist trade, which is the focus. People look forward to the trip, else, they would make the cross lake trip on a faster Lake Express.

Pete

by **Guest** » January 6, 2021, 6:22 pm

guest wrote:
JB wrote:I still wonder if there would have been enough demand for that kind of service in winter to justify/cover the cost of repowering and renovating the Spartan. I'd think that if there was enough demand for that service, Spartan would've been redone a long time ago to focus on that kind of business while Badger focused on the leisure travel segment.

Given Jared's friend's account of the condition of the Spartan, I'd definitely say that it's best bet of returning to service is to become a sister barge to the PM41. The PM42, if you will.
With the oil patch in a slump there are several US flagged, Jones Act compliant, ocean-going deck barges currently for sale, with much greater capacity than the PM41. Seems like it would be easier to purchase one of those than to put money into converting the Spartan if there is need for another deck barge on the Great Lakes.

I'll admit the bean counters might know more. All that I know is that I would talk to multiple truck drivers who wished he ran in the winter. Another thing that I've often seen on the Lakes is when you bring a boat out the company says (In June) "Oh we'll just run it for 2-3 months and put it back to bed!" Then you wind up laying it up in January!! If he had it running I think he'd get more traffic. After all, if you want to go to Milwaukee but don't want to cruise through Chicago or the bears of the UP what would you do?

by **guest** » January 6, 2021, 1:35 pm

JB wrote:I still wonder if there would have been enough demand for that kind of service in winter to justify/cover the cost of repowering and renovating the Spartan. I'd think that if there was enough demand for that service, Spartan would've been redone a long time ago to focus on that kind of business while Badger focused on the leisure travel segment.

Given Jared's friend's account of the condition of the Spartan, I'd definitely say that it's best bet of returning to service is to become a sister barge to the PM41. The PM42, if you will.

With the oil patch in a slump there are several US flagged, Jones Act compliant, ocean-going deck barges currently for sale, with much greater capacity than the PM41. Seems like it would be easier to purchase one of those than to put money into converting the Spartan if there is need for another deck barge on the Great Lakes.

by JB » January 6, 2021, 12:10 pm

I still wonder if there would have been enough demand for that kind of service in winter to justify/cover the cost of repowering and renovating the Spartan. I'd think that if there was enough demand for that service, Spartan would've been redone a long time ago to focus on that kind of business while Badger focused on the leisure travel segment.

Given Jared's friend's account of the condition of the Spartan, I'd definitely say that it's best bet of returning to service is to become a sister barge to the PM41. The PM42, if you will.

Shipwatcher1 wrote:
Guest wrote:
Shipwatcher1 wrote:I'd say it's obvious that if anything were to happen and the Spartan were to be used again, it would have to be completely gutted and repowered, no possible way she would operate as is after being a parts store for the Badger for over 30 years. I would most likely expect to see it cut down to a deck barge like the PM 41 if Interlake were to identify additional capacity needed for that specific type of service.
I always thought Mr. Manglitz had messed up by not repowering it and using it as a minimum service winter boat. Stick a pair of EMDs where the Skinners were with controllable pitch propellers on the shafts, gut the coal bunker and the fire room for fuel oil storage and maybe a pair of packages boilers for ship's services plus a couple of Caterpillar gen sets with oomph to replace the 2 500 or 750kw turbogenerators. Either pave over or rip out the rail ties on the car deck and go boogie!! The truckers would have loved it and would have given Manglitz some steady year-round customers. I know a few of them had wished for such a thing. Plus as a diesel he could have reduced his manning costs. At a minimum you wouldn't need 3 firemen, 3 watertenders and 3 coal passers. And topside as a minimum service boat he could have cut galley and customer service people too. But hey? What do I know?
That sounds like a far better idea than mine. I'm sure many truckers would like a cross lake short cut like that during the winter months

by **Shipwatcher1** » January 6, 2021, 6:51 am

Guest wrote:
Shipwatcher1 wrote:I'd say it's obvious that if anything were to happen and the Spartan were to be used again, it would have to be completely gutted and repowered, no possible way she would operate as is after being a parts store for the Badger for over 30 years. I would most likely expect to see it cut down to a deck barge like the PM 41 if Interlake were to identify additional capacity needed for that specific type of service.
I always thought Mr. Manglitz had messed up by not repowering it and using it as a minimum service winter boat. Stick a pair of EMDs where the Skinners were with controllable pitch propellers on the shafts, gut the coal bunker and the fire room for fuel oil storage and maybe a pair of packages boilers for ship's services plus a couple of Caterpillar gen sets with oomph to replace the 2 500 or 750kw turbogenerators. Either pave over or rip out the rail ties on the car deck and go boogie!! The truckers would have loved it and would have given Manglitz some steady year-round customers. I know a few of them had wished for such a thing. Plus as a diesel he could have reduced his manning costs. At a minimum you wouldn't need 3 firemen, 3 watertenders and 3 coal passers. And topside as a minimum service boat he could have cut galley and customer service people too. But hey? What do I know?

That sounds like a far better idea than mine. I'm sure many truckers would like a cross lake short cut like that during the winter months

by **Guest** » January 6, 2021, 3:51 am

Shipwatcher1 wrote:I'd say it's obvious that if anything were to happen and the Spartan were to be used again, it would have to be completely gutted and repowered, no possible way she would operate as is after being a parts store for the Badger for over 30 years. I would most likely expect to see it cut down to a deck barge like the PM 41 if Interlake were to identify additional capacity needed for that specific type of service.

I always thought Mr. Manglitz had messed up by not repowering it and using it as a minimum service winter boat. Stick a pair of EMDs where the Skinners were with controllable pitch propellers on the shafts, gut the coal bunker and the fire room for fuel oil storage and maybe a pair of packages boilers for ship's services plus a couple of Caterpillar gen sets with oomph to replace the 2 500 or 750kw turbogenerators. Either pave over or rip out the rail ties on the car deck and go boogie!! The truckers would have loved it and would have given Manglitz some steady year-round customers. I know a few of them had wished for such a thing. Plus as a diesel he could have reduced his manning costs. At a minimum you wouldn't need 3 firemen, 3 watertenders and 3 coal passers. And topside as a minimum service boat he could have cut galley and customer service people too. But hey? What do I know?

by **Shipwatcher1** » January 5, 2021, 7:04 am

I'd say it's obvious that if anything were to happen and the Spartan were to be used again, it would have to be completely gutted and repowered, no possible way she would operate as is after being a parts store for the Badger for over 30 years. I would most likely expect to see it cut down to a deck barge like the PM 41 if Interlake were to identify additional capacity needed for that specific type of service.

by **Jared** » January 4, 2021, 10:05 pm

Guest wrote:
Jared wrote:I'm pretty sure that the Spartan is going to the scrap yard once steel prices increase. There is so much wrong with her and shes been stripped for about 20 years.
And who told you this? A primary source? And if she were to be returned to any service, she'd need to be stripped of a lot of stuff anyhow. Time will tell what happens.

My friend worked 2 summers seasons on the Badger as part of her class for deck officer program from the maritime academy up in Traverse City. As mentioned by a poster below they use some materials out of the Spartan to backup stuff for the Badger. She said that there are places on the Spartan where you can fall through the rusted deck, asbestos, standing water on multiple decks, mold, mildew, and grass growing inside. No functioning machinery, and something about burning candles to stop the bilge tanks from rusting out. I'll have to ask for more information.

by **Guest** » January 4, 2021, 6:41 pm

Jared wrote:I'm pretty sure that the Spartan is going to the scrap yard once steel prices increase. There is so much wrong with her and shes been stripped for about 20 years.

And who told you this? A primary source? And if she were to be returned to any service, she'd need to be stripped of a lot of stuff anyhow. Time will tell what happens.

by **Guest** » January 2, 2021, 10:51 am

JB wrote:As for the prospect of repowering the Badger: its status as a National Historic Landmark requires government approval for any significant modifications to the boat, including repowering. That is likely going to be a factor in whether or not they repower her, and if they do, what kind of engines they'll be able to use.

Landmark status doesn't carry any restrictions on the owner. Owners are free to make changes to the property as they desire including withdrawing their property from landmark status. It may affect their ability to obtain federal funding, and possibly affect their income taxes.

by **MilwBob** » January 1, 2021, 9:24 pm

JB wrote:
Darryl wrote:What about conversion to burn oil? Or does that wreck the historical designation, too?
I honestly don't know. And actually, the more I think about it, I don't think the landmark status necessarily prevents them from repowering the Badger as much as that there are just limitations on what they can/cannot do in terms of repowering it in order to keep the historic landmark status.

They might be able to convert it to burn oil with the current engines and keep the landmark status, but I doubt they'd be able to completely re-engine it with modern powerplants and keep the landmark status.

For example, with all the renovations they recently did on Wrigley Field in Chicago, there were certain changes they weren't allowed to make in order to preserve the ballpark's landmark status - chiefly among them the ivy on the outfield walls and the center-field scoreboard.

When Soldiers Field in Chicago was rebuilt, it was changed so much her landmark status was revoked.

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