Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

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Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by hugh3 » February 25, 2021, 5:30 am

Reading about maritime pilots created a thought regarding our military ships. For example: If an aircraft carrier such as CVN 78, the Gerald R. Ford, was ordered to New York harbor, would a pilot be required to bring this ship into port?
I was Working as 2nd Mate on a Corps of Engineers Dredge out of Jacksonville Fl and we were were dredging the Mayport naval basin. We did not require a pilot being a public vessel. The Navy ships did not take public pilots but used there own naval officer pilots.

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by Guest » February 24, 2021, 4:35 pm

ForPetesSake wrote:Reading about maritime pilots created a thought regarding our military ships. For example: If an aircraft carrier such as CVN 78, the Gerald R. Ford, was ordered to New York harbor, would a pilot be required to bring this ship into port?
A "public vessel" is often exempt from pilotage requirements, BUT it would be rare for a large US Navy ship to not take a pilot as the "Oh, nuts" cascade of bad things would fall squarely on the Captain. The Navy, being a political creature, is not forgiving of mistakes.

Now, the Captain/Master is ALWAYS responsible, pilot aboard or not, but by embarking a pilot, there is CYA. When I was piloting, I can count on one hand the number of times the Captain took the conn...if they want it, their boat, their responsibility. (Just make sure the Mate on Watch logs "Master assumes the conn"; when the crunch happens, they own it)

On that topic, it was invaribly the Dutch. We had a saying:
"Wooden head, wooden shoes, *wouldn't* listen." Impatient and BAD boat handlers.

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by ForPetesSake » February 24, 2021, 1:57 pm

Reading about maritime pilots created a thought regarding our military ships. For example: If an aircraft carrier such as CVN 78, the Gerald R. Ford, was ordered to New York harbor, would a pilot be required to bring this ship into port?

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by jim1 » February 24, 2021, 12:44 pm

i heard they would hide the tins of tim horton coffee and put brand x in the weelhouse but all in all most pilots are civil and friendly to everyone in the wheelhouse

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by old sailer » February 24, 2021, 10:27 am

Back in the late 60s where coming up river from Escoumins to Quebec City the Imperial Cornwall on our way to Montreal. We had taken the pilot on board at Escoumins on the 12 to 4 am watch. I was steering on the 4 to 8 watch and came to the bridge at 4 to do my watch. When I came into the bridge the second mate was had the con and the Pilot was wrapped up in a blanket and sound asleep on the couch. The second mate called to the pilot that he had better get up and go to work as the chief mate would be coming up and would not be doing the piloting. The mate arrived and after a disccusion with the second mate, told the pilot it was time to get up and go to work. The pilot replied with a mon and gron and fell back to sleep. The mate went back and pulled the blanket away and told him to get up. Thats when it made for a real interesting watch with the two of them bickering back and forth . The pilot was going to turn the mate into the pilotage and the mate to our company.

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by Mac Mackay » February 23, 2021, 12:54 pm

I heard of case where the laker skipper had a longstanding beef with a certain pilot on the Quebec City / Escoumins run. The pilot dispatchers knew this and always assigned that pilot to the ship when they could.
The skipper then gave orders when approaching the Quebec pilot station down bound for Escoumins, to remove all chairs and stools from the bridge. The pilot had to remain standing for the entire trip (about 150 miles), and was never assigned to that ship again.
Not sure if this is true but its a good story about the potential clash of egos.

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by Lakercapt » February 22, 2021, 7:22 pm

Mac Mackay wrote:There are some ship captains who think they are the supreme deity. It is only when they meet a pilot that they discover otherwise.
I concur with part of this as I had the misfortune to sail for over two years with a captain that held this misconception. During the two years, I don't recall him uttering one word of praise or any pleasantry towards me. He even stated that I would never obtain my certificate of competency as a master. One of the first things I did when I received it, had a photocopy of it and sent it to him. I vowed I would never be a captain like that and there were some during my time as mate who were sadly of the same ilk.

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by Mac Mackay » February 22, 2021, 4:00 pm

There are some ship captains who think they are the supreme deity. It is only when they meet a pilot that they discover otherwise.

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by Lakercapt » February 22, 2021, 12:49 pm

After the trip from Thunder Bay down to Montreal, I as a captain had had enough and needed to get rest. I would not wish to get the necessary qualifications to use to pilot from Montreal to Esqumains. It is a well-known fact the Pilotage Authority for this area did not want the Canadian Laker captains to get exemptions as I as their bread and butter and put every obstacle in their way. A few that tried told of the orals being so difficult and some obscure questions asked it was impossible or nearly so to pass. French is also needed (only in Quebec) as I can attest English is the worldwide language used in pilotage. (even in France)
It was once a necessity to take pilots and tugs at Sept Iles but ship owners got this changed so captains would be able to do it. asked if we would be paid a stipend for doing it as the financial saving were significant. The answer I received gave me a cosy feeling. You get to keep your job !
The company now no longer operational and I did not shed a tear at their demise.

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by Guest » February 22, 2021, 11:00 am

Was there not a time where Pilots were working to rule or were low on manpower etc and some lakes shipping companies instead of waiting for pilots just told there ships to go the fines were cheaper than the delays?

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by Guest » February 22, 2021, 8:35 am

Guest wrote:I know its not quite the same but the Canadian Captains don't understand why they need a pilot down in the St lawrence after they've gone down there hundreds of times.
Ships don't have to take a pilot on the St Lawrence if the Captain &/or mates get themselves certified. Generally speaking captains want to get their rest between Montreal & Quebec. So there is not very many that are motivated enough to do the training and get themselves certified.

Because of free trade agreements with other counties the certification process needs to have a certain level of difficulty or else we would have captains from all over Europe wanting the same pillage as Canadian officers. Can't just give away the certification- lots of safety concerns.

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by jim1 » February 19, 2021, 11:02 pm

pilotage is a fact of life some ship owners just dont accept it there is an old saying there isnt any one more lazy than a sailor but there isnt any one more greedy than a shipowner

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by Guest » February 19, 2021, 3:01 pm

I know its not quite the same but the Canadian Captains don't understand why they need a pilot down in the St lawrence after they've gone down there hundreds of times.

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by jerry at duluth » February 19, 2021, 10:46 am

In the early 1970's. on more than one occasion, we informed the pilot office that we were not in funds for the pilot bill. The vessel owner had not sent the operational funds requested and showed no promise of them doing so in the foreseeable future. The ship promptly went to a safe anchorage and the pilot left the vessel. The owner was advised that there was no pilot available. Upon receipt of the funds, the pilot was available, boarded the vessel and the ship proceeded to departed the seaway. Owners who had a past history of sailing without paying bills did not understand the fact that there were five days of travel in restricted waters, before the vessel was free to run.

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by Guest » February 18, 2021, 9:15 pm

Guest wrote:
You would not believe some of the things that happen on the salties; bizarre. The majority of the ships have great crew and officers, but some of them couldn't navigate their way out of a wet paper bag.
Don't keep us hanging, tell us more!

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by Guest » February 18, 2021, 7:39 pm

"Captain, you are not accepting my advice. Your ship, your respinsibility. I am disembarking and notifying the dispatch office to call your agent. You will get another pilot in 12hrs."

You would not believe some of the things that happen on the salties; bizarre. The majority of the ships have great crew and officers, but some of them couldn't navigate their way out of a wet paper bag.

Re: Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by RCRVRP » February 18, 2021, 2:32 pm

Once a pilot is onboard can he just decide he doesn't want to continue for whatever reason [ can't commuinicate with poor english speaking crew, feels his personal safety is threatened or ???] and then bailout before another pilot comes aboard?

If so may I assume the boat has to anchor until another pilot is onboard?

Great Lakes Pilot and Ocean Vessel Crew Disagreements

by Guest » February 18, 2021, 12:14 pm

In looking through the Nov/Dec 1973 edition of GLMI's Telescope there is an entry dated August 22 of that year in which a pilot left an ocean vessel while it was in the St. Clair River near Algonac apparently over a disagreement with the crew. I have added an image file with the news entry write-up and was wondering if anyone has ever heard of this incident? Are such disagreements between Great Lakes pilots and the ship's crew? I lived in that area from 1980 to 2010 and regularly listened to Sarnia Traffic and never heard of any incidents of this nature although I do recall one pilot get a little snippy at Sarnia Traffic when after being informed of opposing traffic that he replied, "I didn't ask for that information" in a very rude tone.
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