Boatnerd Discussion Forum

i think the armco, now the american valor is owned by lower lakes towing not algoma central, but i could be wrong.

AAA was a payroll designation used by Pittsburg Steamship at the time of their launch.

While all of the same class there were some differences between some of them in terms of appearance. For example, the Armco had a pilot house similar to other vessels built by the American Ship Building Company during the 1950s in that its pilothouse was similar in style to the subsequent steamers George M. Humphrey, John Sherwin, and Shenango II. Also, the Edward B. Greene had a forward cabin layout with an extra deck and a larger pilothouse similar to the Armco. The J. L. Mauthe had a different stern cabin arrangement than the other ships. These ships were based on the three AAA class steamers built by the Great lakes Engineering Works and the American Ship Building Company for the Pittsburgh Steamship fleet in 1952, these being the Arthur M. Anderson, Cason J. Callaway, and Philip R. Clarke. The other five ships were built between 1952 and 1953. Only one, the William Clay Ford, has been scrapped thus far although all have been greatly modified from their original configurations. With the exception of the Ford which was a victim of economic conditions during the 1980s (lack of self-unloading gear for use in the US ore trade and too large for sale to a Canadian flag operator), these ships have proven to be a very versatile class adaptive to evolving business paradigms. However, as they are now reaching 70 years of age they are likely nearing the last chapters of their operational careers.

Four are 767 ft self unloaders the 2 glf boats and the Kaye E Barker, two barges (Reserve and Mauthe) and one scrapped (William Clay Ford).

Darryl wrote: October 18, 2022, 6:54 pm @ RCRVRP AAA Ships are basically 8 ore carriers built in approximately 1952. They were originally 647 feet long, 70 feet wide and powered by a 7000 shp steam turbine. Today, three exist as 767 foot self-unloaders, two are tug barge combos, one is idle, and maybe two scrapped? Others were similar to them. The Fitzgerald, Ryerson, the Interlake non-thousand footers are a little larger than the AAAs. As Mr. Denny says: I hope that helps.

Just to add additional detail - the eight ships (in no particular order):

1. Philip R. Clarke - Part of Great Lakes Fleet (GLF)
2. Cason J. Callaway - Part of Great Lakes Fleet (GLF)
3. Arthur M. Anderson - Part of Great Lakes Fleet (GLF)
4. Edward B. Greene - Renamed Kaye E. Barker, part of Interlake
5. J.L. Mauthe - Modified into a tug/barge, renamed Pathfinder, part of Interlake
6. Armco - Renamed American Valor, currently in long-term lay-up in Toledo, part of Algoma Central Corp
7. Reserve - Modified into a tug/barge, renamed Maumee, part of Rand Logistics
8. William Clay Ford - Owned by Ford Motor, scrapped except for pilot house which is part of the Dossin Great Lakes Museum in Detroit

(please correct me if the above is incorrect)

So to date, 5 still exists as full ships, 2 were converted to barges, and only one scrapped is the William Clay Ford, which oddly enough I believe was the youngest of the bunch...

I can't imagine how much more it costs to run a steam boat than a diesel. Maybe 40 to 50% higher fuel consumption, the extra QMED's, the water treatment costs. And who still has the experience - CE and 1AE steam licenses.

The AAAs with any major deviations from the original plans. The AAAs were designed by USS and also called the Pittsburgh Class, and of those, there are the three GLF boats. Other fleets essentially copied the design and there are 8.

J.L. Mauthe, now barge Pathfinder (smaller stern accommodation block)
Arthur M. Anderson
Philip R. Clarke
Cason J. Callaway
Armco, now American Valor (cabins were built slightly more streamlined)
Reserve, now barge Maumee
Kaye E. Barker (built with the triple deck bow cabin)
William Clay Ford, scrapped in the late 80s.

John G. Munson some claim is an AAA at a similar length and hull design, but shes more closely related to the Saginaw than the AAAs.

I seem to be drawing a blank on the names of several of the AAAs. THere are the three GLF (Anderson Clarke, Calloway) boats, J.L. Mauthe, and William Clay Ford. What were/are the other three AAA's that I'm missing?

@ RCRVRP AAA Ships are basically 8 ore carriers built in approximately 1952. They were originally 647 feet long, 70 feet wide and powered by a 7000 shp steam turbine. Today, three exist as 767 foot self-unloaders, two are tug barge combos, one is idle, and maybe two scrapped? Others were similar to them. The Fitzgerald, Ryerson, the Interlake non-thousand footers are a little larger than the AAAs. As Mr. Denny says: I hope that helps.

They are called Key Lakes because Keystone Shipping of Bala Cynwyd, PA manages the operation for the Canadians to comply with the Jones Act.
At one time, Keystone owned quite a large fleet mainly of tankers I'm not sure they own any ships now. I do believe they manage ready reserve vessels for MARAD/USN and other vessels probably owned by banks.

Since they are privately held, not a lot is public regarding their finances.

To answer the question on GLF, the answer is yes, Key Lakes is the corporate subsidiary of CN. Key Lakes operates the fleet, which is still called the Great Lakes Fleet (still on the hull), but it is for the sole purpose of being Jones Act compliant.

GuestfromEU wrote: October 17, 2022, 7:58 am Someone can clarify this as I am not fully clear on the relationship, but I believe GLF no longer exists. CN owns the ships, but there is an arrangement with Key Lakes in USA to manage them so as to be Jones Act compliant. I believe Key Lakes uses the former GLF offices in Duluth, and their head office is in Pennsylvania.

GLF exists, it's the holding company that owns the ships under the umbrella of Canadian National, while Key Lakes does all vessel management, etc.

Automation was done over the winter of 2000-2001 at Fraser if I recall correctly. What it entailed besides better fuel consumption is unknown to me. I doubt this was extremely effective or I would guess it would have been done to all the AAAs, but perhaps not.

Someone can clarify this as I am not fully clear on the relationship, but I believe GLF no longer exists. CN owns the ships, but there is an arrangement with Key Lakes in USA to manage them so as to be Jones Act compliant. I believe Key Lakes uses the former GLF offices in Duluth, and their head office is in Pennsylvania.

What is an AAA ship?

As Guest mentioned in his post, the GLF AAA ships have not been repowered to diesels like Interlake done to the Kaye E. Barker a few years ago. Yes, I do know the Kaye E. Barker and the Pathfinder were both at one time part of the AAA class. The Pathfinder was the former JL Mauthe but, she was never lengthened and converted to a self-unloader like a few of the other AAA ships were. Just trying to point out is all that the Interlake steamers were repowered to diesels a few years ago. So far, only the Munson from GLF was converted to diesels. Also and Yes I do know the Munson is not a AAA class ship although some consider she is one of them. The Anderson along with the Clarke and Callaway are still steam powered yet the Callaway was automated or something years ago as I’m sure somebody else knows more than I do on that one.

Age catches up to every ship, but the upkeep determines the length of their lives. The Interlake ships are better kept than the GLF AAAs and thus have not had issues like this. What's the determining factor is the short-term gains vs the long-range gains mentalities. The Callaway is the last of the three AAAs to have hull issues. The Anderson had them back in 2017, the Clarke had them before (she sat idle for a few consecutive seasons if I recall correctly), and now the Callaway. I wouldn't say it's an issue specific to the Callaway. The current economic situation, and the fact that the AAAs seem to be in a 2/3 rotation and have been for some time, have people speculating at what point the GLF might be looking at dumping one. Since she's the one in need of repairs now, Callaway might be the unfortunate candidate, but it could have been any of the three. 5 years ago, it would have been the Anderson, 10 years ago, it would have been the Clarke. As people have said in other threads, though, the future of shipping looks to be more in the area of smaller, more versatile ships, and it may be that the owners see value in that. Another factor is if GLF sells and who the buyer is.

My best hunch, and it's only a hunch, is that GLF will buy outright from CN in several seasons. I believe CN put the fleet on the table at the beginning of the year in the face of strong commodity prices in hopes they could get a good price. At least one bid was made (I'm guessing from Algoma), but it was well shy of the price they were hoping to get. In the meantime, GLF is saving capital to purchase the fleet. There's a good chance the Blough and Callaway will sit until then, and CN will likely pocket the insurance claim from the Blough. The new owners will then have to dispose of them as they see fit. Chances are the two ships will come as part of the package, and a good chance at that point that GLF may evaluate the long-term plans for their fleet. To stay competitive with Interlake and ASC, they may see fit to hold on to one or both of them.

I do see the AAAs getting repowered at some point, and it may be in a looming recession that the price for that might be reasonable. Right now, the demand and inflation are too high. They're good ships and the hulls had major work done a few seasons ago (except the Callaway).

Long story short, I see the Callaway as a likely candidate for surviving, and the Blough as the unlucky recipient of a perfect storm of circumstances. I think a lot of people saw the Anderson and Clarke as scrap candidates when they had issues but the owners did the necessary repairs. The AAA class has proven it was well built and very versatile, and to rebuild that tonnage would cost way more than fixing the ballast tanks.

Age is catching up to the Callaway, that along with a lot of cycles on her in terms of loading and unloading causes wastage, especially in the ballast tanks - which is the areas where she needs the most work. It's a lot of things that she needs to have done, which is costly in terms of the time and money it takes to do the repairs

If you go to the American Bureau of Shipping ABS Record database, you can do a search and see what work she needs - it's under Findings, btw.

https://www.eagle.org/portal/#/absrecord/search

The ships are drydocked every 6 years (normally 5, but an extension is nearly always granted).

Ships, just like humans, don't always age as well as another of the same age - even from the same family.

How is it that the Arthur m Anderson and Philip r Clarke are in good enough shape to sail and the Cason j callaway isnt? I know they did extensive work to the Anderson a few years back but don’t all these ships need inspections every 5 years? I guess I don’t understand why the callaway needs so much work done to it when all 3 ships run the same trade routes and haul the same cargoes.