Boatnerd Discussion Forum

The brigantine Clarion lost her deck load of locomotives in 1851. The locomotives were found a salvaged 2 years later after the ice cleared and were returned to service.

While you are out poking around there are a pair of locomotives on the bottom off of Fairport. They were part of a deck load that was lost I believe in the late 1800's. I am trying to remember what ship it was.

Thank's. :D

I suggest that you go to both CLUE(Cleveland Underwater Explorers) and ErieWecks websites operated by Mike and Georgann Watcher. Gary is hard to get a hold of. Their emails are on their sites.

How do I get in touch with them? Can you email their email address? :D ::becoming a very happy detective::

I have not dove the Colgate, but I know people who have. The best penetration is at the stern into the engine room and some cabins. Do not penetrate the mud banks at the bow because they are dead ends and hard to back out of without causing a silt out.

JGorski, I suggest you get into contact with either Gary Kozak or Dan Scoville whom have found a few dozen shipwrecks, they will be able to help you attain the eastern basin sonar maps. Sediment maps are useless in the wrong run. I have used them before and they are off.

The Water WItch would be an really good find, her engine (which is originally from the Fashion) was built around the same time as the Indiana which sank in Lake Superior which the Smithsonian raised from the bottom.

Jared, have you ever dived the James B Colgate in Lake Erie, is there any good penetrations into the wreck (since its upside down), like the engine room or parts of the upper structure?

What I think she looks like now, is totally dependent on how much ice and weight she had; and how fast she went down.

I don't think the Captain knew what was brewing weather wise. The temperature alone dropped about twenty degrees in a few hours; and weather forecasting then was dependent on hunch.

I think if she'll be found, she'll have more bow damage, and a good possibility of top damage. Now if only I can find a sonar map and sediment map of the south shore, I'd be a very happy detective

To say the truth, I couldn't tell you what type of vessels they were. They did not seem to have any machinery on them or any indication of side wheels. The people to really talk to is Dan Scoville or Gary Kozak. Now on Lake Huron my focus is on the Hydrus, Clifton, Thousand Islander, Water Witch, RG Coburn, and the Kaliyuga. Dave probably missed the Keystone State near the Harbor Beach area or she went down in mid lake outside the lanes which makes it very difficult to find her. The Thousand Islander drifted awhile before she sank in my opinion putting her our of the shipping lanes also. I hope to find one of the big ones I mentioned this year, but that's the way the game is played. The Thousand Islander sank with no reported wreckage or even a towline break location so it will be difficult to research the location and making grids.

Interesting analysis Jared. Did you guys find any sidewheel steamers or other notable wrecks out there on Lake Erie Searching for the M&B #2?
Two wrecks that I hope they find which is not a Lake Erie wreck is the Thousand Islander or the famous Keystone State.

It would be hard to determine what would have happened if the Milwaukee had sank in deeper waters. It all depends on what the superstructure is made out of and how hard the ship hit the bottom. For example when the Milwaukee went down, she had a full cargo of heavy railcars and that would increase the speed she hit bottom, but bottom was only 130ft away, whereas the Senator carried hundreds of heavy automobiles and the bottom was 500ft away so the water could act as a cushion. Steel usually does not blow like wooden superstructure and would remain intact, Benjamin Noble is an exception to both rules. I would suspect that she sank in the deep waters of Long Point or near the deeper Canadian shore and her superstructure is most likely gone either by impact or elements. I would suspect that the hull is intact in one form or another. Guessing is pointless until the wreck is found. We searched all the way out to the Canadian border finding only a few busted up schooners and a barge, but nothing that would give a trail to her. Because of where we suspect where she lies, it may be a long time before she is found.

Considering that the south shore ports of Lake Erie were and are notorious coal loading ports I would concur. Most car ferries loaded their fuel coal by having a locomotive push a cut of coal hopper cars onto the car deck. The floor of the car deck over the coal storage bunker was covered in grating and the coal hoppers simply unloaded through the bottom of the car through the grating into the bunker. Any prudent Captain knowing he had a rough passage ahead of him would have topped of the bunkers with fuel.

Do any of you think when the M & B #2 is found (if it ever is) will it be in a condition similar to the Milwaukee shipwreck, with the upper deck and superstructure collapsed or will it be more intact?

Another interesting question is do you think if the Milwaukee was sitting in 200-250 ft of water would it have more of the upper works intact?

Jared wrote:She was most likely replenished in coal reserves after a round trip. That's how the ferries worked according to a few marine historians I know. Things like that are irrelevant unless you really got bit by the shipwreck bug.

Hmmm, could be. :D

She was most likely replenished in coal reserves after a round trip. That's how the ferries worked according to a few marine historians I know. Things like that are irrelevant unless you really got bit by the shipwreck bug.

Okay, honest, just one more question :D. Does anyone know if the M & B #2 was replenished when she pulled in the night before she went missing?

More questions.

1) How much coal did the M &B #2(1) carry?

2) How much coal would she have used to keep max pressure for an extended period of time?

3) How was the ash removed from the boilers as she traveled?

Thank's for the information, this is going to be very helpful. And, Slip, thank you; I still got more, (lot's more) research to do, but I have a feeling that the M&B #2(1) is closer then people think.

Right now I'm researching ship dynamics, and looking for a working model of her. :D

Some time ago a helicopter landed on the ice (in winter) to check conditions, off of Erie Pa., and discovered that the ice below them was solid all the way down to the bottom. They determined that a North wind had blown the lake ice southward, and continually push the ice in such a manner that it stacked upon itself till reaching bottom. Divers in summer at times have also noticed scouring on the bottom from this stack of ice. The Dean Richmond lying off North East Pa., has not experienced this, but of course its in 120 feet of water. Most of Lake Erie, East of the "Dean" has been side scanned by Gary Kozak (spelling?) when he was looking for the Dean. Once he found it, he ended his searching, at North East, Pa.

This may help you with surveys that have been done. The first is surveys carried out by government, the second chart shows organic buildup in the lake.

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/greatlakes ... es/dat.jpg

http://archives.datapages.com/data/sepm ... 542_f3.jpg