Boatnerd Discussion Forum

Just wondering if anyone know if the E.M.Ford has been scrapped yet at algoma. Last I heard anything on her was when she was towed threw the locks over to Algoma Steel to be scrapped.
Thanks for any information.

The statement about the City of Milwaukee group being out of funds would also lead me to ask about the safety of the USCGC Acacia. Is it not so that the two ships are part of the same organization, the Society for the Preservation of the SS City of Milwaukee? The Ace is currently the only 180-foot WLB open to the public with Bramble's closure. I know that I have read that Sundew is available for groups to use, but for all intents and purposes she is a private ship now. I appreciate that the new owner, Mr. Foster, has expressed in news stories a desire to protect her integrity.

Just because the engines or hull configuration may be different from original construction does not automatically disqualify a ship for listing on the National Register of Historic Places or the National Historic Landmark program. There are many factors that come into consideration. NHL listing is a much higher standard than the NR, but the natural evolution of a vessel over its service lifetime would be taken into account in the documented history of the ship and the review process. For instance, LV103 (Huron Lightship) was originally a steamer. Now she is a diesel motor vessel with a different outboard profile and interior upgrades from original and yet she is listed as a NHL. Same with fireboat Edward M Cotter in Buffalo. Boblo boat Columbia, a NHL, has an extra deck space added in front of her pilot house and major internal space changes from original build. Essex-class carriers USS Yorktown and USS Lexington are both NHL vessels and yet have undergone significant hull modifications from original configuration, i.e. hurricane bows and angled flight decks. Schoonmaker had her original steam engine replaced in 1952, yet she was still nominated for listing on the National Register through the State of Ohio even if returning her to her as-built configuration would be physically and economically unfeasible.

I'm sure there are other examples. In many cases, modifications to a historic property take on significance of their own.

Nominations to the NR are handled and reviewed initially through the State Historic Preservation offices of the state or territory in which the resource is located. NHL nominations are handled more directly up front by the National Park Service. In either case, the documentation and application process is shepherded through the review system by preservation professionals.

Bramble has been officially designated as individually eligible for the NR. Even though she is not officially listed, that still is significant. In my professional estimation, Bramble is worthy of listing as a NHL. She may still be a viable ship, but she has been failing as a museum venue for quite some time, even before the major recession fully hit. It's been over a year since it was decided to sell her and the Museum has rejected all bids. The director was quoted in the Port Huron Times-Herald on Nov. 14, saying that Bramble is closed and will never be reopened to visitors by the PH Museum and that the Museum is struggling financially and cannot afford to maintain the ship much longer. As a result, the director laid it out that Bramble may be sold for scrap if the Museum does not get an acceptable bid soon.

Text of the story is here, halfway down page: http://www.boatnerd.com/news/archive/11-11.htm

City of Milwaukee and Meteor might be running low on funding -- as I am sure many such operations are -- but there hasn't been much publicized threat to those vessels' existence beyond rational conjecture. I have had correspondence with several USCG veterans -- all with service on various 180-foot WLBs and some with inside tracks with the bidders for Bramble -- and they are all skeptical and concerned for Bramble's future.

Some of that is what killed the plan to preserve the sandsucker Niagara II about 10 years ago- hull mods & different engines, among other things, meant she was not eligible for NHL status. I disagree with the statement that the Bramble is the most endangered historic ship on the lakes: City of Milwaukee (out of money) & the Meteor (low on money) both are in a very precarious position & will be gone long before the Bramble is; moreover, the Bramble is still a viable ship and can serve other purposes. Don't forget before it got a big infusuion of cash & interest the Boyer (now Schoonmaker) was very much in danger of being sold for scrap.

What artifacts are gone from the Ford? I read an article that was published earlier in December saying she is up on the chopping block next season.

A good, recent article on issues related to museum ships: http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalhistory/2011-07/keeping-floating-museums-afloat

Documented and verified pedigree/provenance is important. The more information that is verified and available in addition to existing historic, design and structural integrity -- particularly from the period of interpretation and historic significance -- the stronger the case for preserving a particular vessel. While items have been removed and structure changed, as long as a particular percentage of original integrity remains (preferred) or can be accurately and faithfully restored following accepted preservation standards and practices, historic designation can still be attained, particularly if certain features can be authentically restored to put the ship into a configuration that is correct for the period of interpretation.

In the JB Ford case, if original items removed from the pilot house were returned and put back in place, then that would be preferable to replacing with similar, non-original items or reproductions.

The idea is to create an authentic “sense of place” or, in other words, an authentic historic interpretive experience for guests.

Then you have instances where a ship still retains a tremendous amount of historic integrity and any changes would have a negative impact. The retired USCGC Bramble for instance, is eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places through the professional historic survey performed on behalf of the US Coast Guard for the 180-foot WLBs prior to their decommissioning. The survey identified her documented accomplishments as well as her intact historic and structural integrity as keys to her eligibility. Because of these attributes and accomplishments that give Bramble national historic significance, in my opinion as a preservation professional, I believe she is likely eligible for National Historic Landmark status, the highest designation in the US. While she is not officially listed for whatever reason, just being eligible for listing still carries significant weight. It is extremely unfortunate that she is currently threatened. (As EM Ford is already at the scrapper and JB Ford and ST Crapo are still in ownership with the cement company with no apparent immediate plans for scrapping or destruction, Bramble would be the most endangered historic ship on the Great Lakes.)

The question with the cement boats is whether or not the documented history and integrity they currently have would pass the review and standards of the respective historic preservation officials and review boards in the states in which they are located as well as the national review board of the National Park Service. EM Ford is no longer in US ownership and is apparently doomed through the purchase agreement. The others are still in cement company ownership. While a resource may be nominated for the National Register by a third party, the owner of the resource has the right to object and block the listing. However, eligibility can still be determined by the review boards.

It would be nice if we [i]could[/i] save everything, since all three of the surviving Huron Cement up-and-downers have a lot going for them as far as preservation goes. The E.M. Ford has her 19th Century build date and that lovely quadruple-expansion engine with its unusual Joy valve gear, but that's about it. Pretty much everything else on her has been replaced and upgraded to the point that she's basically a 1950s/1960s boat with an 1890s hull and engine. She is also owned by a Canadian scrapper, who has vowed to honor the stipulation in the sale contract from LaFarge that she must be scrapped and cannot be re-sold for any kind of further use. Purvis does have a track record of keeping the engines out of the steamers he scraps though, so we can certainly hope that the E.M. Ford's engine will be available for preservation when the time comes.

The S.T. Crapo, well, in a perfect world I'd love to be able to save her too, since she was built as a cement boat, so she's pretty much all original from 1927. She is still performing useful work as a storage barge in Green Bay though, and will probably continue to do so for a few more years yet.

The J.B. Ford, as has been pointed out already, has her original cabins and engine room machinery, so although she had the major rebuild of her cargo hold and spar deck in 1959, she still retains much of her original character from 1904, or at least from 1916 when the pilothouse was enclosed. She also has the most colorful history of the bunch. It reads like a good detective novel, the more we get into it, the more we want to keep going and learn more, every little facet of her history reveals another clue that leads to another fascinating story. The more I learn about this boat, the more I want to see her saved to tell her story to future generations.

No, you can't save them all, and they don't save themselves either. But that doesn't mean it isn't worth trying.

If I'm not mistaken the JB Ford's cargo holds are the only major part that have been modified over the years. The cabins, engine, etc are all largely original. The EM Ford's cabins were replaced in the 50's. You could put her engine on display somewhere (Perhaps the JB's hold or the Schoonmaker's).

As nice as it would be, they all can't be saved. If I were going to save one it would be the E.M. as she has the quad engine, and there aren't many left.

Bringing in a small submarine is different then a freighter.

Has anyone every considered Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry?

They have used their lakefront location to bring in a German submarine and a Boeing jet liner. why not a symbol od science and industry like a like boat?

[quote="Guest 2"]In another post last year, it was mentioned that anything of any mechanical, historic, or archival value have been removed from the J.B. Ford. The pickers left the asbestos and very little else. Is the E.M. Ford still at the Soo?[/quote]

The steel is there, the rivets are there, the woodwork is there, the engine is there, the machinery is there, the cabins are there.

We know where alot of the missing items are, and they will be made available to be returned in the event the ship is saved. It is not unlike the William A. Irvin, she was missing Alot of items like telegraphs, wheel, compass, the same stuff that is missing on the JB Ford, it all came back over time, and the same thing will happen when the JB Ford is saved. We can get it back, if not replace it. They are only small parts of the story of a vast 108 year long tale. She is still very much intact when it comes to the parts that count and tell the story.

In another post last year, it was mentioned that anything of any mechanical, historic, or archival value have been removed from the J.B. Ford. The pickers left the asbestos and very little else. Is the E.M. Ford still at the Soo?

As a breakwall she would have to be filled, flooded and sunk. Only useable spots would be the upper works and they would be very vulnerable due that fact that the point of a break wall to to keep sea out of a harbour. On top of that, hull maintenance would be impossible with most of it inaccessible. Look at the Ridgetown in Port Credit. Her back is broken in several places but the cabins are intact although rather rough. She's takes some pretty good sea in the fall, and is not a safe place to be at that time (or anytime really). The city even refused a summer offer for a free repaint on her 100th anniversary. To much of a safety liability. Breakwall service is the next best thing to scrapping.

The port of Grand Marias, MI is in need of a break wall. Would it be feasible to place an old laker as part of one and use the old ship as a museum, or restaurant, or entertainment hall, maybe even as a casino? A ship, especially one as significant and old as the Ford, would be a tourist draw to the community even if it were closed and just sitting there. If it were also purposed as something mentioned above or a hotel or something of the sort, the revenue it brings in for the community would be worthwhile, maybe even pay to upkeep a complete break wall. I know there would be much red-tape to go through and many things like community approval to be won over but it seems two problems could be solved. Part of a break wall in place to help keep the port open and an old laker saved to become a historical landmark. I originally mentioned this a few years ago when both of the lakers mentioned were said to be going to scrap. Their combined lengths would almost seal up Grand Marias harbor, it's just maintenance from there.

I hope you have more success negotiating the J B Ford then I did. Having agreed to save both the E M Ford and J B Ford from the salvage torch I was disappointed to encounter a clause inserted by LeFarge prohibiting the vessels from continuing as working boats. Despite direct negotiations with LeFarge outlining our companies history of using ancient steam for modern commercial purposes they were adamant that we could not purchase these vessels for a commercial operation. So good luck to you if you can get the J B Ford as a museum piece.

[quote="Timerover51"]MilwBob, that is why I was suggesting Kenosha as a possible home. You would be half way between Chicago and Milwaukee and pull from both areas. You also would have the additional boost of being the only such attraction in the immediate area, as the nearest other ships would be the USS Silversides, the City of Milwaukee, and the LST 393 in Muskegon.

.[/quote]

You're forgetting the Cobia at Manitowoc. But I think Kenosha would be interested, for as I recall a few years back when the Mather's status was questionable as to staying in Cleveland there was interest in moving her to Kenosha.

I would wait to see where the non profit status goes and if the company is willing to part with it. Also funding and a business plan. Don't want to see a lot of effort if the non profit doesn't come through. A few years ago there were enthusiastic individuals who wanted to save the one of the cement boats. They created a lot of buzz, even solicited funds but as it turned out they didn't have the background or the means to take on such a task. Still trying to figure out where the donations went.

MilwBob, that is why I was suggesting Kenosha as a possible home. You would be half way between Chicago and Milwaukee and pull from both areas. You also would have the additional boost of being the only such attraction in the immediate area, as the nearest other ships would be the USS Silversides, the City of Milwaukee, and the LST 393 in Muskegon.

Steve, I do have a contact with the Kenosha Area Visitors and Convention Bureau, if you would like me to check with him.

I believe the requirements for declaring a ship historic is no major hull or engine modifications. That's one reason why the Niagara II was scrapped a few years ago-a lengthened hull and re-engining made her ineligible for historic status. Whereas the Milwaukee Clipper qualifies, though she had her superstructure replaced, the hull is basically the same as are her engines (quads, I believe.) As far as artifacts, the 'City of Milwaukee' was stripped of an awful lot by scavangers & souvenir hunters (wheel, bridge chadburns, builders plates, engine room gages, ship's bell, other items as well) but she is open as a museum with National Landmark status.