American Victory

[Ed]

Jared, I'm with you. Was very surprised and disappointed to the Burton go . Would certainly be even more disappointed to the Valor go. Needless to say, these are tough times for us old steamer fans.

[Guest]

Algoma is one of the best run shipping companies on the lakes
They make a profit
They invest millions in new ships
The have long term solid contracts in place
The same can be said for CSL
Unfortunately the same can not be said for the American fleet
When was the last time they built a new hull?
I would think the last thing on algomas mind was we have to buy 2 ships that haven’t sailed for years just so they aren’t sold to another company and compete against us
Over the years the only company that bought old hulls and returned them to service was lower lakes
However as we know they are not likely to be financially able to buy much of anything these days
It was most likely all four hulls or nothing!

Given the impact of the coal trade decline upon the ASC fleet, wouldn't Algoma have been bargaining from a position of strength in this deal?

[Wally Wallace]

I was having lunch with an old friend who has worked in the marine industry for years. The topic of Algoma buying four American ships came up. He as heard that there is a tender out for Tug companies to quote on towing two vessels from an American port to Port Colborne.I said that didnt look good as there are two old steamers that algoma picked up in the deal for the four ships. He said that no one would run or try to run a steamer in Canadian waters as there are no steam ticketed engineers left and the cost of transfering them to Canadian standards is prohibitive. His thought was they will be cut for scrap!
I hope he is wrong as they are two classics. Wally

[Denny]

Not to offend anyone or their comments but, while I agree that McKeil Marine is expanding their business and operations I do not see them as far as going after the two steamers American Valor or Victory and also using them to expand their company. Granted McKeil did get both the Evans and Florence Spirit two former salties but they are relatively young yet in age. Unless Algoma has a plan on the Valor and Victory that they are keeping a secret on for now, unfortunately I see these two classics someday being scrapped. It’s really sad and breaks your heart to see these two classics end their careers like this but let’s face it folks as certain things in life don’t last forever even some of our favorites! Better get a good view of them and all the photos you can because let’s face it people, there are fewer and less ships sailing these days and it will only continue to dwindle down over time especially when the coal fired plants shut down someday. Even the 1,000 footers someday will end up being scrapped as well! Times are changing that’s for certain.

[Pjwh12]

Algoma is one of the best run shipping companies on the lakes
They make a profit
They invest millions in new ships
The have long term solid contracts in place
The same can be said for CSL
Unfortunately the same can not be said for the American fleet
When was the last time they built a new hull?
I would think the last thing on algomas mind was we have to buy 2 ships that haven’t sailed for years just so they aren’t sold to another company and compete against us
Over the years the only company that bought old hulls and returned them to service was lower lakes
However as we know they are not likely to be financially able to buy much of anything these days
It was most likely all four hulls or nothing!

[Guest]

I guess the one I would really hate to see get scrapped is the American Valor. I was a bit shocked along with a few others to see the Burton go to scrap, this could be one last chance to put her back to work as we know American doesn't need these excess hulls.

The thing with her is she can't transit the Welland, so that really limits the cargoes she can haul.

[Guest]

One reason Algoma would pay more than scrap value and the scrap it is to keep it from being operated by competition. On the Canadian side there has been a long held belief that there is to many ships and to much competition to get the freight rates high enough to pay for new ships. There may also be some equipment they are interested in salvaging.

What competition did Algoma have to worry about acquiring these two ships? I doubt CSL would buy either and I don't believe Lower Lakes is any condition to do so either at this point. Is there a feeling that McKeil may expand their operations?

[Jared]

I guess the one I would really hate to see get scrapped is the American Valor. I was a bit shocked along with a few others to see the Burton go to scrap, this could be one last chance to put her back to work as we know American doesn't need these excess hulls.

[Guest]

Algoma could scrap one ship at the Soo at the Purvis yard. Essar would use the scrap steel in there bast furnaces. They bring scrap metal all the time into Essar on the Pere Marquette 41. The other vessel would go to Port Colborne for the torch job. Speculation is like watching the suits on ESPN. Everyone has there opinion about who, what, how, and why this or that could, should, or will be done. Wait and see I say.

[Ed]

For what it's worth, I recall a discussion I had with a guy that sailed on the Middletown (now American Victory) when they were Oglebay Norton. He said after American bought it and had laid it up that he didn't believe it would ever sail again. Outside of a lot of money it would need for improvements on an old ship, it was a hard ship to work on. Being converted from a WW 2 tanker, there were a lot of stairways that went up and came back down in places where other ships would have a flat walkway. He claimed it was tiring just getting from pint A to B. Can anyone confirm this?

[Guest]

One reason Algoma would pay more than scrap value and the scrap it is to keep it from being operated by competition. On the Canadian side there has been a long held belief that there is to many ships and to much competition to get the freight rates high enough to pay for new ships. There may also be some equipment they are interested in salvaging.

[Guest]

What condition is the powerplant of the Algorail? A stern transplant similar to the Canadian Transfer is an interesting concept, however, unlikely!

[hausen]

Look at the better ships they've scrapped recently

In terms of power plants, yes. Not likely in terms of hull condition, though.

It's almost a certainty that the hulls, cargo holds, and unloading systems on the Victory and Valor are in better shape than similar components on a lot of much "younger" Algoma vessels. The former Oglebay Norton ships rarely if ever hauled salt and rarely if ever put brackish water or salt water in their ballast tanks, while most ships in the Algoma fleet do both of those things on a regular basis. So if in some miraculous twist either of these ships were to return to service (doesn't seem likely) it would probably be on the merit of the condition of their cargo carrying sections.

[Guest]

Look at the better ships they've scrapped recently ships that had current surveys etc so your pretty much guaranteed there are no plans for steamers that have been idle for a decade. Im sure they were purchased either because ASC said take these 2 you have to take the other ones or rumours of another company being involved in operating them. And guest I thought the paint joke was really quite clever!

[Pjwh12]

You seem to have inside knowledge. I would like to hear more about this business plan

[Guest]

Why would ASC sell these ships for less than scrap value to another fleet when they could just have easily sold them for full scrap value themselves? Is there a consideration in transferring them to Canadian registry in that there are separate regulations between the two countries when selling a ship for scrap? In any case, I find it hard to believe that Algoma would play what seems to be the general role of a scrap broker in such a transaction. During the 1980s, however, ULS International did however acquire several retired vessels for scrapping.

[Guest]

Algoma is in the shipping business not the scrap metal business !
There is no money in buying ships just to scrap them
There is a reason they bought them and I suspect that it may have been an all or nothing deal
Buy 2 and get the next 2 for free or at least for less than scrap value
Also it may be that they will use them for parts on other ships in the fleet although that seems like a long shot or the have a business plan for the 2 ships that we are not yet aware of
Time will tell

Business plan is to scrap them.

[Seaway]

Algoma is in the shipping business not the scrap metal business !
There is no money in buying ships just to scrap them
There is a reason they bought them and I suspect that it may have been an all or nothing deal
Buy 2 and get the next 2 for free or at least for less than scrap value
Also it may be that they will use them for parts on other ships in the fleet although that seems like a long shot or the have a business plan for the 2 ships that we are not yet aware of
Time will tell

[Guest]

Would they be aboard seeing if their was any good paint left in the paint locker as they always seem to be in need of paint.

Why would Algoma be looking for Columbia colors? IF there was any paint left in the locker, it would either be Columbia maroon or a slight chance black for ASC

I'll go out on a limb and say that was a bit of sarcasm. Plus, if there was any paint left in the paint locker it would have been frozen so many times over the years it would be useless.

[Shipwatcher1]

Would they be aboard seeing if their was any good paint left in the paint locker as they always seem to be in need of paint.

Why would Algoma be looking for Columbia colors? IF there was any paint left in the locker, it would either be Columbia maroon or a slight chance black for ASC