tugboathunter wrote:The Calumet and Manitowoc have not outlived their hull lives, they are still relatively young for American vessels and both are American flagged so are not competing with Trillium and Equinox vessels. Poor maintenance, likely extending to their previous owners (who also went bankrupt) was the cause of the expensive repairs.
Oglebay Norton dissolved 12 years ago. The Calumet and Manitowoc have had at least two 5-year surveys since then. Its a bit of a stretch to say that repairs in 2018 are brought about by Oglebay.
If anything, Oglebay extended their life by refusing to haul salt. While under Oglebay management, those boats never carried salt cargoes.
Not sure about Trillium crews, but this video of Algoma Equinox mentions she has a crew of 18. That seems smaller than typical for a Seaway size bulker.
The Calumet and Manitowoc have not outlived their hull lives, they are still relatively young for American vessels and both are American flagged so are not competing with Trillium and Equinox vessels. Poor maintenance, likely extending to their previous owners (who also went bankrupt) was the cause of the expensive repairs. The Trilliums and Equinoxes will also require extensive hull repairs throughout their years of operation.
Rand's smaller vessels are also smaller intentionally: smaller vessels allow Rand to access cargoes and ports that the Equinox and Trillium class vessels cannot. This is their niche. Algoma is just now taking delivery of their first smaller newbuild. The Trillium and Equinox ships are mainly intended for the long-distance Seaway trade which Rand rarely participates in. And with their new engines, some of their ships are actually quite fast.
[quote="Guestcapt"]I have to agree with wlbblw's comments and more to add.
I too am not sure where Pjwh12 gets his information, but I don't believe he has all his facts in order in regards to LLT's reason for bankruptcy.
Below is an earlier post of mine
The information is directly from the documents rand filed into court!
So yes I do have my facts in order
“After some further reading of the banckruptcy statement rand filed in court in deleware they claim the following reasons for bankruptcy
1. 60% of there profits are in Canadian dollars which is worth less than American dollars
2. 70% of there expenses and 100% of there interest payments are in American dollars
3. Manitoulin Was built and payed for with American dollars but is Canadian flaged so it’s profits are in Canadian funds rand states this is a major reason for there not being able to pay the interest on the money owed to build her
4. in 2017 rand spent 30 million on dry dock and repair 3 times what they usually spend
This was a result of the Calumet ll Manitowoc Menominee all required extensive steel renewal due to years of neglect and poor maintience
This is all taken from the legal document rand filed into the court
So it seems the Canadian dollar is rands reason for going broke!!
That and trying to patch holes on 3 ships that outlived there normal hull life by decades! and building a new ship they could not afford
All this to me points to the corporate mismagement at rand
As a side note the Canadian dollar is worth about 80 cents to 1 American dollar
So if rands customer pays rand 1 dollar Canadian it only recieves 80 cents American so rand looses 20 cents on every dollar it is paid
So as I said a fleet that is old uses too much fuel sails slower and holds less cargo per trip than trillium and equinox
My comparison was simply between lower lakes fleet and the new trillium and equinox hulls no baise intended
There is no comparison what so ever
To suggest that any ship in the lower lakes fleet is even close to being as efficient as a trillium or equinox is wishful thinking at best
I stand by my statement
Trillium and equinox haul more cargo for less fuel with less crew than any other hull on the lakes
As for the reasons for the bankruptcy of Lower Lake I suggest you read the bankruptcy documents available on the internet that the chief financial officer filed for lower lakes stating his reason for the bankruptcy
Old ships too much fuel to many repairs too much competition low shipping rates etc
I have to agree with wlbblw's comments and more to add.
I too am not sure where Pjwh12 gets his information, but I don't believe he has all his facts in order in regards to LLT's reason for bankruptcy. On the CDN side, with the exception of maybe the Kaministiqua and Tecumseh, LLT has some of the more fuel efficient ships on the lakes. Maybe the cost of re-powering them was high, but the Cuyahoga certainly is not a high consumption vessel, the Pierson on her short Lake Ontario runs burns very little fuel, Mississagi again is not a heavy fuel consumer and the Saginaw, Michipicoten and Ojibway have new fuel efficient engines. Each of these vessels possibly with the exception of the Saginaw and Ojibway regularly does well in excess of 100 trips per year making up for their lack of carrying capability. Slowest ships, really?
The only thing he said correctly was the "oldest" ships. Curious as to where his bias comes from.
Comparing the US and Canadian fleets is like comparing apples to oranges as both are optimized for the particular trades they serve. Obviously the Canadian fleet is focused on the capability of carrying cargo through the Welland Canal and St. Lawrence Seaway while the US is primarily geared for operations west of the Welland Canal. In addition, US regulations prevent any major fleet investments in the form of powered ship construction in offshore shipyards for domestic operation. Look at what has happened in the Canadian shipbuilding industry. The bottom line is that there does not appear to be a demand for tug-barge units for the Canadian fleet outside of tanker operations. Although all new build US units since the early 1980s have been tug-barge units, along with some conversions of existing vessels, it seems that fleets such as Interlake and USS GLF with long histories on the lakes have pursued repowerings and other modernizations rather than build new tug-barge units. With powered vessels now running with fewer crewmembers than in the past, I would tend to believe that the margin of crewing costs between both types has narrowed significantly over the years.
Guest wrote:Algoma isn't in the habit of saving bells, builder plates, the ship's wheel, chadburns, etc.
When she does end up being scrapped, it's going to take someone outside Algoma to save pieces like this.
Battle stars and builder plates are not in the same category. One is a military honour and the other is memorabilia. Trashing battle stars would be a corporate blunder by Algoma which I do not believe they would do. I'm quite sure Algoma officials are well aware of the battle stars and their historic meaning. I am confident they would remove them with respect and likely return them to the US Navy.
You seem confused. You asked what has the US side built recently, so I listed a whole bunch of new construction, which you choose to ignore because they’re tug-barges & then I gave you more reasons why they don’t need additional tonnage & now you’re making your point about fuel efficiency.
Well, if you want a throw a curve ball, I’ll switch it up. Interlake & GLF have both invested heavily in new automated engine rooms, exhaust gas scrubbers, & in the latest diesel technology. Interlake has been steadily repowering all of their old steamers for years now. GLF has a few boats with one man engine rooms on their older steamers due to automated controls.
Tug-barges may not be as fuel efficient as the most modern ship hull form but they have lower crew requirements & in today’s economy, they represent a substantial investment. They will remain a viable option for new construction or conversion & a major amount of tonnage in the future.
Pjwh12 wrote:
wlbblw wrote:“Unfortunately the same can not be said for the American fleet
When was the last time they built a new hull?”
American firms don’t got thru the same conditions that wipe out the Canadian boats as fast. They barely ever run down into the salty St. Lawrence, & they don’t haul as much salt. US boats last a lot longer that way & don’t need direct replacement as often. They also run 1,000 footers & don’t need as many individual boats & multiple trips.
To answer the question:
Lake Erie Trader, Great Lakes Trader, Integrity, Innovation, Endeavor, & the Cleveland Rocks are all new to the lakes in the last 15-20 years. Plus others added to the fleets here from off lakes like the Ashtabula & Dann Marine’s 2 units that came up from the coast.
I think you missed my point!
The Canadian fleet has been updated with the most modern fuel efficient hulls on the lakes
This is a business decision allowing the Canadian ships to haul more cargo faster for less fuel with a smaller crew
The American fleet is old burns too much fuel and hauls cargo slower
Case in point lower lakes operating the oldest slowest least fuel efficient fleet on the lakes ends in bankruptcy
My assumption is that the silver star in the center represents five battle stars earned, bringing the total up to 9 battle stars to represent the number she earned for her service in the Pacific theater during WWII.
The Middletown was an easy boat to be a deckhand on, as long as the man at the winches knew how to properly run steam winches.
Its sad to see the boats i sailed on going to scrap or sold Canadian.
Reserve, Frantz, and Burton, scrapped. Soon the Middletown. The Buckeye cut down to the dreaded barge. The Earl and Wolverine Canadian.
Columbia Star is still running.
What will the fleets look like in 20 years?
wlbblw wrote:“Unfortunately the same can not be said for the American fleet
When was the last time they built a new hull?”
American firms don’t got thru the same conditions that wipe out the Canadian boats as fast. They barely ever run down into the salty St. Lawrence, & they don’t haul as much salt. US boats last a lot longer that way & don’t need direct replacement as often. They also run 1,000 footers & don’t need as many individual boats & multiple trips.
To answer the question:
Lake Erie Trader, Great Lakes Trader, Integrity, Innovation, Endeavor, & the Cleveland Rocks are all new to the lakes in the last 15-20 years. Plus others added to the fleets here from off lakes like the Ashtabula & Dann Marine’s 2 units that came up from the coast.
I think you missed my point!
The Canadian fleet has been updated with the most modern fuel efficient hulls on the lakes
This is a business decision allowing the Canadian ships to haul more cargo faster for less fuel with a smaller crew
The American fleet is old burns too much fuel and hauls cargo slower
Case in point lower lakes operating the oldest slowest least fuel efficient fleet on the lakes ends in bankruptcy
In the fleet Photo Gallery history about her, under the ASC fleet it shows photos of her as the Middletown with AO 71 along with the battle stars on her pilothouse. She was hit and attacked and that could be where i'm getting confused by the enemy in World War 2. So may that's where I'm getting things mixed up and confushed? Like you said, maybe somebody else can shed some more light on this and how she got the battle stars. The Lee A. Tregurtha also has them on her pilothouse and I believe she was also involved in some way during World War 2 as well. Perhaps it is mentioned in the write up of her history how she got her stars. Hope this helps.
Denny wrote:Anyone hear then where they may scrap her at? I’ve read and heard to where she may be towed to Purvis at the Soo at least above the locks at the Soo. The scrapped steel from her would in turn be used as far as the steel making process at Essar/Algoma Steel then. Would be nice if she does get scrapped at least in Port Colborne IMS as maybe folks at least down on the lower lakes can see her one last time. One thing to is at least save the pilot house as you still have the World War II stars and ribbons she won in shooting down enemy air craft. It would be a shame if Algoma and wherever she’s scrapped at doesn’t save those ribbons as she is a part of history. Too bad there isn’t a way to raise funds to at least save the pilot house and ribbons and have them restored in a spot like Toledo at the National Great Lakes Museum. Yeah I know that they got the old St. Marys Challenger piothouse but the Victory would also make a nice addition as well there. Just my thoughts and opinions here!
I'm quite certain that whatever her fate, her battle stars will be preserved. One point as a matter of clarification only, I do not believe her battle stars were awarded for shooting down enemy aircraft. Maybe someone can add to this.
“Unfortunately the same can not be said for the American fleet
When was the last time they built a new hull?”
American firms don’t got thru the same conditions that wipe out the Canadian boats as fast. They barely ever run down into the salty St. Lawrence, & they don’t haul as much salt. US boats last a lot longer that way & don’t need direct replacement as often. They also run 1,000 footers & don’t need as many individual boats & multiple trips.
To answer the question:
Lake Erie Trader, Great Lakes Trader, Integrity, Innovation, Endeavor, & the Cleveland Rocks are all new to the lakes in the last 15-20 years. Plus others added to the fleets here from off lakes like the Ashtabula & Dann Marine’s 2 units that came up from the coast.
Anyone hear then where they may scrap her at? I’ve read and heard to where she may be towed to Purvis at the Soo at least above the locks at the Soo. The scrapped steel from her would in turn be used as far as the steel making process at Essar/Algoma Steel then. Would be nice if she does get scrapped at least in Port Colborne IMS as maybe folks at least down on the lower lakes can see her one last time. One thing to is at least save the pilot house as you still have the World War II stars and ribbons she won in shooting down enemy air craft. It would be a shame if Algoma and wherever she’s scrapped at doesn’t save those ribbons as she is a part of history. Too bad there isn’t a way to raise funds to at least save the pilot house and ribbons and have them restored in a spot like Toledo at the National Great Lakes Museum. Yeah I know that they got the old St. Marys Challenger piothouse but the Victory would also make a nice addition as well there. Just my thoughts and opinions here!
