sailor shortage

[UP North George]

I will add my two cents to the conversation. My background is sailing for 19 years now, the first 6 on the lakes, the remainder on ocean ships (USA and foreign flag). Currently on board a US flag coastwise ship as Chief Engineer.

Today is Christmas. A good majority of readers here spent time with your families, celebrated with delicious food, presents, and surely made some wonderful memories. Here on the ship, we were lucky enough to be in port so I was able to webcam chat with my family. They knew I would be at sea over the holidays, so it was not a surprise, and it was not the first time (nor will it be the last). I said Merry Christmas to them three days ago, assuming our schedule would have us at sea today, but we got lucky with a change in orders.

It's still a melancholic feeling to not be home for special events like this. Sure, I chose my profession, and I knew what I was getting into, but that still doesn't make life easy. My specific employer couldn't care less about their shipboard employees, so much so that the steward had to skimp on food all month just so he had the budget to afford a moderate Christmas meal. I know that's not the case everywhere, but from menus I read aboard US flagged ships posted by friends on Facebook today, my ship actually fared quite well. A friend on another ship had the choice of franks and beans or chicken fingers for their special meal today. That was on a US flagged large container ship.

We are expected to keep up our license, jumping through ever-increasing hoops each year, all for "routine" %2 or 3% increases in our day rate. We receive no holiday pay, no OT, only a flat daily wage. If I work 12 hours or I work 20 hours, it's all for the same pay. 12 hours is standard, but I average 15-16 hours per day. CE pay is about $160,000/year for 180 days work (Master is slightly more). Chief Mate/1AE is $145,000, 2nd Mate/2AE is $110,000, and 3rd Mate/3AE is $90,000. Rough figures, and that includes vacation (equal time working and at home, 90 day rotations).

There is a shortage of qualified and willing people for many reasons, but the one I see come up more often that not when talking amongst colleagues is that the money simply isn't there. This time of the year (but applicable any time), many people travel/work and are away from home who earn less, but few of those, in comparison, have the highly specialized skills, knowledge, and level of credentials that shipboard workers have (officers and unlicensed included). My brother is a MD and he believes I do more work-related off-time training than him. I spent several years working aboard foreign flag ships doing commissioning work aboard newly delivered LNG carriers. Filipino or Ukrainian crew, Indian officers most typically. The ships were built quite well and outfitted nicely. They had internet on board 24/7, anywhere at sea. They ate well, and were treated as valued employees by their company. Sure, their salary was not equal to US or Canadian seafarers, but in context to their cost of living at home, they had more earning power.

I've rambled on enough, and just wanted to add something to the conversation.

I understand that you may feel the industry has treated you worse as it has went on. I will say here on the lakes the meals still are generally good and I believe most all companies have Holliday some different from others. The wages though what land based jobs are paying 90-160,000$ a year especially without going to school for 8 years and being buried in debt.

[UP North George]

Still trying to figure where that 60,000 a year number came from. DEU's with ASC make just over 13 an hr. and made to take 45 day vacations. They don't come close to 60,000 a yr.

Our company an OS starts at 245/day A/B is 330/day depending on schedule you can work anywhere from 180 minimum to 240 days a year. The days are 12 hr. days. That is without year end bonuses, safety incentives.

[Guest]

I will add my two cents to the conversation. My background is sailing for 19 years now, the first 6 on the lakes, the remainder on ocean ships (USA and foreign flag). Currently on board a US flag coastwise ship as Chief Engineer.

Today is Christmas. A good majority of readers here spent time with your families, celebrated with delicious food, presents, and surely made some wonderful memories. Here on the ship, we were lucky enough to be in port so I was able to webcam chat with my family. They knew I would be at sea over the holidays, so it was not a surprise, and it was not the first time (nor will it be the last). I said Merry Christmas to them three days ago, assuming our schedule would have us at sea today, but we got lucky with a change in orders.

It's still a melancholic feeling to not be home for special events like this. Sure, I chose my profession, and I knew what I was getting into, but that still doesn't make life easy. My specific employer couldn't care less about their shipboard employees, so much so that the steward had to skimp on food all month just so he had the budget to afford a moderate Christmas meal. I know that's not the case everywhere, but from menus I read aboard US flagged ships posted by friends on Facebook today, my ship actually fared quite well. A friend on another ship had the choice of franks and beans or chicken fingers for their special meal today. That was on a US flagged large container ship.

We are expected to keep up our license, jumping through ever-increasing hoops each year, all for "routine" %2 or 3% increases in our day rate. We receive no holiday pay, no OT, only a flat daily wage. If I work 12 hours or I work 20 hours, it's all for the same pay. 12 hours is standard, but I average 15-16 hours per day. CE pay is about $160,000/year for 180 days work (Master is slightly more). Chief Mate/1AE is $145,000, 2nd Mate/2AE is $110,000, and 3rd Mate/3AE is $90,000. Rough figures, and that includes vacation (equal time working and at home, 90 day rotations).

There is a shortage of qualified and willing people for many reasons, but the one I see come up more often that not when talking amongst colleagues is that the money simply isn't there. This time of the year (but applicable any time), many people travel/work and are away from home who earn less, but few of those, in comparison, have the highly specialized skills, knowledge, and level of credentials that shipboard workers have (officers and unlicensed included). My brother is a MD and he believes I do more work-related off-time training than him. I spent several years working aboard foreign flag ships doing commissioning work aboard newly delivered LNG carriers. Filipino or Ukrainian crew, Indian officers most typically. The ships were built quite well and outfitted nicely. They had internet on board 24/7, anywhere at sea. They ate well, and were treated as valued employees by their company. Sure, their salary was not equal to US or Canadian seafarers, but in context to their cost of living at home, they had more earning power.

I've rambled on enough, and just wanted to add something to the conversation.

[Guest]

It really depends upon what your job is and how much o/t you get. For example, a third at ASC makes $271.02 for an 8 hour day. Overtime is about $50 an hour. Working 7 days a week guarantees you 16 hours o/t. Central Marine a third makes $276.44, a second $297.12, and a first is $326.76 and I think a Chief makes around $400-405 or so. Local 5000 oilers are making around $21 or 22 an hour if I remember correctly. I don't know what the SIU boys make but nobody deserves a paycut except politicians and maybe some company bigwigs!! :)

[Brian Ferguson]

2004 the last year I sailed I made ~$13/hr (I have pay stubs somewhere) on deck with Oglebay Norton. I think I made $11 something with Pere Marquette the summer before, 12hr/day anything over 8hr's x1.5. Bethlehem and GLF 2002-2003 paid the same as Oglebay Norton. For a week or two in 2003 we were down to 9 people on the PM41/Undaunted and we were running Port Inland and Cedarville for places like Holland and Ludington, we didn't sleep but we made some good money.

[Guest]

Still trying to figure where that 60,000 a year number came from. DEU's with ASC make just over 13 an hr. and made to take 45 day vacations. They don't come close to 60,000 a yr.

That particular SIU contact is the worst paying job out here, not the correct measurement to use.

[Guest]

On the Canadian side:

O/S $80,000 for 6 months work

A/B $90,000 for 6 months work

Cook $100,000 for 6 months work

1st Mate $120,000 to $150,000 for 6 months work depending on trade

All approximate, depending on OT, some make more and some make less.

[Colin]

I cannot remember the exact numbers but as an OS with Algoma 4 years ago The base hourly rate was in the low 20s (CAD), but you would get more then that on weekends and would get quite a lot of overtime (changes with vessel and trade).

[MarcE]

My last year of sailing in 2004 I was an OS and made 12 an hour.

[garbear]

When I quit sailing for USS/GLF in 1979 I was making something like $8.50 an hour. Guess wages haven't changed much in 40 yrs.

[Colin]

I do not know about others quoting numbers but I am on the Canadian side. If ASC is normal then pay is much worse on the American side.

[Guest]

Good grief, that’s not much more than I made when I quit sailing in 1981.with inflation over those years it is actually less. You can work at Walmart and within 90 days be full time and upwards of 15$ an hour, provided you apply yourself and are noticed as a good worker. Even Kroger’s here in my city starts at 11$ an hour. Yes, you have free Room and board but most guys still maintain a land based residence. I wouldn’t want to work deck dept. with such small crews even if I were young again. Shipping has been relatively stable again the past few years and the companies are making money. They have created their own shortage. Dime wise and dollar foolish.

[Diesel]

Still trying to figure where that 60,000 a year number came from. DEU's with ASC make just over 13 an hr. and made to take 45 day vacations. They don't come close to 60,000 a yr.

[Colin]

In my limited experience I found the pay quite good and and the workload very low. Long hours of course but not much in the way of hard work. I come from sailing ships and a farm though so my frame of reference might be a bit different.

Not to say it is all great, the culture in the companies I have worked for has some serious problems, which is probably contributing to the difficulty in recruiting people. I pop in and out of it but do not stay full time in the industry.

[Up North George]

I don't understand the comments on pay. Where else can you start directly out of high school and start at around 60,000$ a year with full benefits. Yes starting out you will be required to actually work. Also you won't have your phone strapped to you. You also may have to go without drinking . That said meals are good you live on board. The job itself is so much safer than it ever used to be , with the companies all now pushing safety. It's also a job where you can still work your way up the ladder all the way to the top. All companies have actual time off schedules which vary some by position or company and some give you choices. which usually vary between a two for one 60/30, 28/14 or equal time 28/28. You are gone but when you are home that time is 100% your time. Like all jobs it is what you make it.

[diesel]

There is plenty of O.T on the lakes at least with ASC where you have a crew of 20. A 15 hr work rest rule. The oceans can be rough working from 0500 to 1900 because unmanned engine rooms. On the lakes the engine room guys are doing everything they can to keep up. With just a Qmed and a 1st A/E,2nd A/E and 3rd A/E and the oiler can be used in the tunnel. Just hoping the cuts are done but I really don't think they are.

[guest]

I've never sailed but I could imagine that its not the most glamorous lifestyle, especially for the deck crew. Missing birthdays, holidays, other life events. Working in -20 windchills. Loading and unloading at any time of the day or night. If the companies want people they need to pay up. The same thing happened in the regional airlines in the US. Not even 10 years ago pilots starting out were paid barely $21,000 a year. Most with $100,000 in school debt. Now they start around $50-60,000 with sign on bonuses. It was because less and less young people were joining the industry, so they finally paid up.

Not intending to insult or demean the sailing profession in any way, just my humble opinion.

[geysir]

Wonder what opportunity there is for someone that is changing careers at middle age in this field? Or is this profession primarily aimed at younger individuals?

I started sailing in my mid 40s after 20 years of office work. A terrible decision financially but I couldn't handle being caged up any longer. I did OK, only had one sprained ankle, and retired recently in my 60s. I struggled to find jobs sometimes but did find work on the Lakes then moved to oceans and obtained a 3rd mate license.

The Lakes jobs are doable for middle age people. Due to safety and injury concerns you don't lift or strain too much. Deckhands can get called out at various hours so your sleep pattern can be screwy. However, Lake guys don't get a lot of overtime so you have ample sleep time. Noise and some deck crew sleep two to a room are other issues to consider.

Life on ocean ships can be a bit harder as you age. Working 8am-4pm then standing your midnight-4am watch plus getting up to tie up or let go at any hour gets a little tiresome. Plus, you are away from family and friends for 2-6 months at a time.

[Guest]

It's not a sailor shortage, it's a pay shortage.

[Guest]

After 9/11 shipping on the Great Lakes went down hill fast. Security was set up backwards. Instead of protecting the ships and crews, security made it next to impossible to get off of USA flagged vessels,in USA ports, with USA citizens with homes mostly around the Great Lakes ports that they served. Noithing like having to sit on your ship in your home port not being permitted to go home or taking to your wife through a fence. Crews at some loading ports were not allowed on the dock to shift cables or read draft marks in order to load the vessel because no security person was available. Wages, medical insurance all hit a downhill slide in the 80’s. When I married my wife I made twice her wage. When I retired she made more per hour than I did. Same job different times. Problem getting crews, who wants to be a prisoner on a ship in their home port for peanuts when there is better jobs ashore.

When did you sail last? You are not going to find a dock out here that will not allow you in or out. Zug used to be a problem, but that has been resolved.