ASC Sold

Discussion board focusing on Great Lakes Shipping Question & Answer. From beginner to expert all posts are welcome.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote:Here we are on 12/1 and ASC is still operating as usual and the Spirit which was supposedly laying up in Erie for transfer to new owners is up and loaded in Silver Bay.

Nothing to see here folks.
Who said they were laying up? I only ever saw she was in Erie for repairs of some kind.

In a way it makes a bit on sense that ASC might be sold soon as in recent years they have rid themselves of their unused/leased tonnage. Since 2017 they have sold off the Cornelius, Buffalo, Victory, Valor, and Lakes Contender. If you go back further to 2011, they let the lease go on the American Republic.
Gr8Lakes Sailor

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Gr8Lakes Sailor »

Guest wrote:Here we are on 12/1 and ASC is still operating as usual and the Spirit which was supposedly laying up in Erie for transfer to new owners is up and loaded in Silver Bay.

Nothing to see here folks.
I predict this post will age well.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

Here we are on 12/1 and ASC is still operating as usual and the Spirit which was supposedly laying up in Erie for transfer to new owners is up and loaded in Silver Bay.

Nothing to see here folks.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

Also Algoma wants the Mariner to use her on some of the salt runs, there not huge fans of running the new builds in the winter on the salt trade.
Diesel

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Diesel »

Like I said before, the only thing we have heard on the boats and this was coming from an observing Captain. Algoma wants the Burns Harbor, Indiana Harbor and the Courage. The rest Great Lakes fleet wants. It makes sense in away ASC does haul a lot for Great Lakes. That says GLF needs bottoms so why not cut out the middle man and buy up ASC.
Bob

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Bob »

What 3 footers would glf get? I would assume the American integrity and American century as they are newer than the Indiana harbor and McCarthy. Also they would maybe get the burns harbor. I would think that maybe interlake would lease the American spirit as they had done that before. Just my thoughts and 2 cents worth.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

It will be interesting to see if all the rumors prove to be true. The latest inside news that I have is that Great Lakess Fleet will receive three of the footers and the smaller vessel will go Canadian, most probably to Algoma.
Some of the footers are not owned by ASC like the Spirit. It will be interesting to see where the leased and managed ships go.
ASC Diesel

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by ASC Diesel »

The most we can get out of any in the office is there is something going on. Like the person said we on the boat and the office will be the last to know. Whether it be in Dec or at the winter meeting.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

Its amazing about all of the new talk generated by this rumored sale. In particular all of the new trade routes and transhipment possibilities! For one thing I doubt that the offloading of cargo from a large carrier into smaller carriers in Lake Erie would become a standard mode of operation for the shipping industry on the lakes. Ships are built to serve a particular purpose and as such do not generate commerce but rather serve the needs of commerce. Although it can rightly be argued that ships can generate new trade routes.

As far as if this sale turns out to be true, the last ones likely to know are those either working aboard these ships or serving in support positions ashore. For example, at a company I once worked for there suddenly appeared a group of visitors seemingly looking at every aspect of the building and operation. When pressed, upper management disclosed that these individuals were interior designers from a company hired to redecorate the facility. Three months later came the announcement the company was sold and that we would be out of work 60 days later. Incidentally, that announcement came on December 1.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

My $0.02. The way I see it is GATX gets the most money if they sell a company making a profit whole. I'm not sure they can sell assets and an order book for nearly as much. They've spent the last couple of years unloading ships that were not earning them money. This makes them look better for potential buyers. I agree its a contracting industry and they are looking to get out, but they will do it for maximum cash. Anyone else have any thought on this?
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

I could see one or two thousand footers going Canadian but not all of them.

Other than Algoma Steel and Stelco at Nanticoke what other trade routes would be a fit for a Canadian thousand-footer? None.

Yes, you can trans-ship cargo from one vessel to another. But that's not the most efficient use of any ship.

It seems something is afoot with ASC, as to how that pans out we'll have to wait and see.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

Best guess they leave the footers American and all the seaway able ships get flagged Canadian.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

DCN wrote:If seems as if people here as making the assumption that if ASC is for sale that means there are no contracts or no cargo for the vessels to haul, and I very much doubt that is the case. If ASC is sold to a Canadian fleet it would be a very short sighted move to reflag the majority of ASC's vessels Canadian because that would immediately shut them out of any Jones Act compliant cargo contracts that ASC has in place (which would very likely be included with a sale of the fleet). As the overwhelming majority of ASC's cargo is Jones Act regulated what would be the point of throwing that revenue stream away after investing millions to buy the fleet that moves that cargo?

As Algoma is the front runner in the who's buying ASC rumor mill, lets look a little closer. What would be the advantage of reflaging footers that they just spent millions on, only to have to spend millions more building a transload dock someplace so they can reload grain or ore into their almost brand new class of ships they also just paid millions for that are designed for efficient Seaway trade while at the same time giving up millions in potential US revenue because they brought the fleet under the Canadian flag?

If ASC is ever sold Canadian I'd suspect the majority of the fleet will be run by a US based, Jones Act compliant, subsidiary corporation of the Canadian parent corporation.

DCN
I agree! If there is indeed a sale (and in my opinion that is a big "if" as things like this take on a life of their own) the most probable result of a Canadian fleet buying the vessels would be the formation of a US subsidiary to operate either some or possible all of the vessels under the US flag.
DCN
Posts: 71
Joined: March 21, 2010, 3:33 pm

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by DCN »

If seems as if people here as making the assumption that if ASC is for sale that means there are no contracts or no cargo for the vessels to haul, and I very much doubt that is the case. If ASC is sold to a Canadian fleet it would be a very short sighted move to reflag the majority of ASC's vessels Canadian because that would immediately shut them out of any Jones Act compliant cargo contracts that ASC has in place (which would very likely be included with a sale of the fleet). As the overwhelming majority of ASC's cargo is Jones Act regulated what would be the point of throwing that revenue stream away after investing millions to buy the fleet that moves that cargo?

As Algoma is the front runner in the who's buying ASC rumor mill, lets look a little closer. What would be the advantage of reflaging footers that they just spent millions on, only to have to spend millions more building a transload dock someplace so they can reload grain or ore into their almost brand new class of ships they also just paid millions for that are designed for efficient Seaway trade while at the same time giving up millions in potential US revenue because they brought the fleet under the Canadian flag?

If ASC is ever sold Canadian I'd suspect the majority of the fleet will be run by a US based, Jones Act compliant, subsidiary corporation of the Canadian parent corporation.

DCN
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

I don't believe a Foreign Trade Zone designation would be applicable to bulk cargo unless it undergoes further processing. The basic idea of a FTZ is to take a good and further process or repackage it before shipping it outside the FTZ with a reduction or elimination of taxation.
hausen
Posts: 803
Joined: July 2, 2010, 1:36 pm

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by hausen »

Guest wrote:
hausen wrote:
Guest wrote:Hypotthetically, could a Canadian footer load at a US ore port and unload at a US port such as Ashtabula strictly for the purpose of a transload location onto Canadian Seaway size boats ? Would this be allowed under US laws ?
I was under the impression that this procedure was a semi-regular occurrence at some point during the last few years. Weren't thousand footers moving iron ore pellets from Lake Superior to an Ohio port, discharging into a stockpile, and then Canadian 740'-ers were re-loading the pellets and taking them to Quebec City for transshipment overseas?
Yes, you're correct but that scenario doesn't match the question. In the scenario you described the footers are US flagged and moving cargo from a US port to a US port. Reloading onto a Canadian boat from a US port for delivery to a Canadian port is also perfectly legal and is done routinely. The question was essentially asking if Canadian flagged footers and Seaway boats could use a port like Ashtabula as a convenient port to temporarily store and transload ore; all involving Canadian boats.
Understood! For some reason I was thinking if Algoma purchased a thousand footer or two they might leave at least one of them under a U.S. subsidiary and flying the U.S. flag. It was that scenario I was assuming when asking the above question. Thanks for the clarification!

As stated by other posts above - if a company were to try to use a theoretically Canadian-flagged footer as part of the chain of transport for U.S.-sourced iron ore pellets or U.S.-sourced grain headed down the Seaway, they'd likely have to do direct vessel-to-vessel transfers in Canadian waters, or figure out a way to build a transshipment facility on eastern Lake Erie.

Seems like there could be potential for some of the high-cubic capacity thousand footers to enter the grain trade as coal tonnage declines. This would be dependent on what kind of physical modifications could be made to upper lakes grain terminals, and to the ships' cargo / unloading systems to minimize aforementioned handling impact on grain. Modifications might also be made to unloading booms to enable ship's effectiveness as direct transfer platforms. Or maybe a shore-side elevator or pierside/floating transfer apparatus would make more sense. This would also of course be dependent on whether a company could find the right procedural and logistical practices to make for a smooth operation.

If these things were work-able, it's not a terrible stretch of the imagination to see high-cube thousand footers loading grain at Superior or Thunder Bay and meeting ocean vessels in eastern Lake Erie to load them up, or using a storage barge, floating transfer equipment, or shoreside elevator as an intermediary.

Another possibility would be to use Seaway-sized lakers as 'chase vessels' to bring oceangoing ships' top-off cargoes of grain along with them from the same origin elevator on the upper lakes. Currently many Seaway-sized salties stop at one of the deep-draft lower St. Lawrence ports to take on an extra 5,000 - 12,000 tons of grain so that they have full holds before heading overseas. This grain is often brought down the Seaway on lakers, unloaded at elevator, stored there, and then elevated again to bring it out to the ocean ship when they stop to "top up." Seems possible that a properly-rigged self-unloading laker could instead load that bit of grain at the same upper Lakes terminal that the ocean ship loaded at, head down the Seaway just ahead of or just behind the ocean ship, and then transfer it directly into the ocean ship somewhere on the lower St. Lawrence. That might slightly reduce the amount of elevation cycles the grain cargo experiences on its way to its destination. Wonder if this couldn't keep a river-class self-unloader or two busy for part of each shipping season. If it proved to be significantly more efficient for certain grain cargoes it might even induce movement of grain through the Seaway that might've otherwise gone to the coast by rail.
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote:
hausen wrote:
Guest wrote:Hypotthetically, could a Canadian footer load at a US ore port and unload at a US port such as Ashtabula strictly for the purpose of a transload location onto Canadian Seaway size boats ? Would this be allowed under US laws ?
I was under the impression that this procedure was a semi-regular occurrence at some point during the last few years. Weren't thousand footers moving iron ore pellets from Lake Superior to an Ohio port, discharging into a stockpile, and then Canadian 740'-ers were re-loading the pellets and taking them to Quebec City for transshipment overseas?
Yes, you're correct but that scenario doesn't match the question. In the scenario you described the footers are US flagged and moving cargo from a US port to a US port. Reloading onto a Canadian boat from a US port for delivery to a Canadian port is also perfectly legal and is done routinely. The question was essentially asking if Canadian flagged footers and Seaway boats could use a port like Ashtabula as a convenient port to temporarily store and transload ore; all involving Canadian boats.
I don't understand much about this but would a Foreign Trade Zone solve this issue?
Guest

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by Guest »

hausen wrote:
Guest wrote:Hypotthetically, could a Canadian footer load at a US ore port and unload at a US port such as Ashtabula strictly for the purpose of a transload location onto Canadian Seaway size boats ? Would this be allowed under US laws ?
I was under the impression that this procedure was a semi-regular occurrence at some point during the last few years. Weren't thousand footers moving iron ore pellets from Lake Superior to an Ohio port, discharging into a stockpile, and then Canadian 740'-ers were re-loading the pellets and taking them to Quebec City for transshipment overseas?
Yes, you're correct but that scenario doesn't match the question. In the scenario you described the footers are US flagged and moving cargo from a US port to a US port. Reloading onto a Canadian boat from a US port for delivery to a Canadian port is also perfectly legal and is done routinely. The question was essentially asking if Canadian flagged footers and Seaway boats could use a port like Ashtabula as a convenient port to temporarily store and transload ore; all involving Canadian boats.
garbear

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by garbear »

hausen wrote:
Guest wrote:Hypotthetically, could a Canadian footer load at a US ore port and unload at a US port such as Ashtabula strictly for the purpose of a transload location onto Canadian Seaway size boats ? Would this be allowed under US laws ?
I was under the impression that this procedure was a semi-regular occurrence at some point during the last few years. Weren't thousand footers moving iron ore pellets from Lake Superior to an Ohio port, discharging into a stockpile, and then Canadian 740'-ers were re-loading the pellets and taking them to Quebec City for transshipment overseas?
Believe it was Conneaut.
hausen
Posts: 803
Joined: July 2, 2010, 1:36 pm

Re: ASC Sold

Unread post by hausen »

Guest wrote:Hypotthetically, could a Canadian footer load at a US ore port and unload at a US port such as Ashtabula strictly for the purpose of a transload location onto Canadian Seaway size boats ? Would this be allowed under US laws ?
I was under the impression that this procedure was a semi-regular occurrence at some point during the last few years. Weren't thousand footers moving iron ore pellets from Lake Superior to an Ohio port, discharging into a stockpile, and then Canadian 740'-ers were re-loading the pellets and taking them to Quebec City for transshipment overseas?
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