First Footer to Scrap

[Guest]

I’ve been saying for the past 2 years that the us flag GL fleet will stabilize around 25 active ships by 2030 or sooner. With more blast furnaces being shut down the cargo demand will drop precipitously. It’s been a good run for 120 plus yrs but the handwriting is on the wall. It’s why fleets are having trouble with new entry sailors. No stable future.

[Guest]

An interesting point to be made in relation to all of this conjecture relating to the first thousand footer to be retired is the fact that the US lake shipping industry is continuing its decades-long decline through the removal from service and/or scrapping of units without replacement. This is a direct result of the continual shrinkage of material movement demands that the shipping industry relies upon. Ships do not create demand, rather they merely supply the efficient movement of large amounts of materials over long distances at economical costs. Without cargoes, these ships would not exist and thus the continuing decline in the number of ships active on the lakes is a reflection as to how healthy that demand is in both the short term, and by comparing several seasons of tonnage movements, over the long term. The fact that there has been no further indications of new construction for the US fleet is likely indicative that companies are apparently seeing in their long term forecasts. I see a lot of comments on this board that assert that many of these 1000 foot vessels are in poor condition. If true, could these ships be nearing the end of their economical lives were maintenance is becoming less of a concern? The bottom line is that if demand had continued to grow rather than decline over the past decades the US lake fleet would have seen the addition of new units and a higher utilization rate of existing units. Instead, there has been no such replacement tonnage acquired for ships removed from service through accidents like the Roger Blough and St. Clair. I know some will say that these two examples were inefficient in their own ways and their loss was somehow significant. I would disagree, based on the fact that the companies that owned them had retained them and were planning to continue to utilize them prior to their accidents despite being among the first units to be sidelined during low demand periods in their respective fleets. However, their removal from service has apparently not generated any undue complications in their owners ability to meet seasonal demands. There is little doubt that US flagged shipping on the lakes will remain relevant in the future, but I believe that the number of active powered vessels will continue to decline until it numbers around two dozen ships or, and likely, less.

[Denny]

For Mn Bob and Duluth Guest and many others, I agree that the PRT is definitely NOT going anywhere anytime soon as she’s the newest of the footers and Interlake’s Flagship and Pride and Joy. Aside from all of that, they just repowered her and in 2018 put the scrubbers on her. Before that, the Barker had the scrubbers in 2016 and the Miner in 2017. So, why would we even have these three in the conversation and discussion IMO here when Interlake has invested big time dollars in upgrading 3 of their footers? To me, Interlake obviously plans on keeping their main 3 footers around for a while otherwise, why then would Interlake take the time and money to upgrade those 3 footers? The Gott and Speer I do agree with their special type of steel and their higher HP, each will serve and be around for several more years and seasons yet. Like the Gott, Yes I can too see the Speer someday also being re-powered and I believe firmly and strongly and you just wait and see but someday the Speer will have a boom put and added onto her just like the Gott has now. I guarantee it! So, go ahead and laugh all you want now all but someday we will see the Speer with a long unloading boom! As for the 5 BayShip footers, may I add one slight correction? To my knowledge anyway, the Burns Harbor I don’t think has ever carried any coal in her career unless she did it once only was all? The Century and Integrity look much better than the Wally Mac and the Indy do however, the Century now is starting to look a little bit rough. As for American Spirit, with its shallow draft of only 50 feet she’s dedicated only to the ore trade yet she’s carried stone before and I’ve seen her in the river do it. In 2011, she carried coal just a couple of times once to St. Clair and I saw them and they took forever to unload. The Spirit can also fit under the loading shoots at Marquette where some of the footers are limited due to their deeper drafts. Presque Isle indeed can carry just about anything as far as Ore, Stone and Coal so, she could still be around then for a while. Finally, I do agree though the Cort is definitely up near the top of the list due to her unique unloading system and the fact she unloads only at Burns Harbor. So, I would have to say the Cort would top my list and from there is anyone’s guess at this point in time! I would say to everyone then, let’s just be patient and wait and see as far as when then the first footer goes to scrap and when? In the meantime, let’s just enjoy along with appreciate these giants before like many other older classic lakers they are gone before our very eyes! Just my thoughts and opinions only here is all!

[Mn bob]

You can add the Paul r Tregurtha to the list of ships NOT going to scrap anytime soon as she too was repowered several years ago now and is one of the newest footers still sailing!

[Guest]

The Gott isnt going anywhere, her hull is ice rate, and was repowered not long ago. Also there's discussion about repowering the Speer in the near future, so unlikely you'll see it go to scrap.

[Duluth Guest]

This was an interesting speculative read.

My thoughts are pretty much in line; the least efficient and specialized footers will likely be the first to be retired. I feel the Cort and Speer have to head this list. These hulls cannot efficiently haul anything other than taconite and must be loaded at a shiploader. The Gott falls in here too but her better unloading versitality, she might fall down the list somewhat. The big-5 Bay Ship Footers (Century, Integrity, Burns Harbor, McCarthy, Indiana Harbor) can haul both coal and taconite quite efficiently. The American Spirit and Paul R. Tregurtha are in a funky niche too since the Spirit is specialized for taconite and the Tregurtha is specialized for coal; they will have smaller cargo capacities for taconite. Presque Isle I think will be around for awhile despite her smaller taconite capacity since she can efficiently haul taconite, coal and limestone due to her shallower draft. When bulk cargo types begin to diminish, I think we may see the footers begin delving into the limestone trades as well which may allow the Miner and Barker to remain around. If I had to guess, I would say, baring some sort of disaster ( severe grounding, fire or structural issues) the order of the first 5 would be something like this:

1.) Cort
2.) Speer
3.) Tregurtha
4.) Spirit
5.) Gott

[Guest]

I originally brought up the Spirit because, if you have followed the past few years, it has had immense amounts of downtime owing to many mechanical and other issues that have come up repeatedly. Whether she is similar to the Interlake footers is irrelevant... it only matters how she compares to the other ASC footers, since it is widely believed that ASC's footers are in the worst condition, and that they will likely be the first company to send one to scrap when that day comes. Interlake notoriously keeps their vessels in good shape, so none of theirs were really a consideration.

[Guest]

The Speer is very closely built to the Gott, although they are not true sister vessels because of engine differences, mechanical differences and other subtle differences.

[Guest]

The Spirit (former Stinson), has two belts and a HUGE longitudinal razor back, hence, poor cubic capacity for coal or stone. Ore, that is her diet.

JRB and MM have three belts with so their longitudinal razorbacks are much smaller. At 50ft moulded depth, neither of the three boats has the cubic capacity of PRT or any of the BayShip built boats that are 56ft deep.

[Guest]

What’s the difference between the American spirit and the mesabi miner or James r. Barker? I believe they carry about the similar cargo tonnage so I am not certain how you choose the spirit for the scrapyard. What do the interlake vessels have that you favor? The Speer was not built to the same standards as the Gott. Though she is a beast the Speer doesn’t match her.

[Guest]

I believe that Gott and Speer were also built much stronger with USS's prevailing belief in year-round shipping operations when they were designed.

[Mn bob]

The Indiana harbor and the Walter j McCarthy are probably in the roughest shape of the asc footers and the American spirit doesn’t have the capacity the other footers do so that’s why I had those 3 probably going to scrap first. Even if the Speer is only 3 years newer than the asc footers, uss/great lakes fleet take way better care of there fleet than asc does.

[Guest]

The Speer is only “newer” by 1-3 years on the footers you list to scrap. I doubt the age difference will make a difference.

[Mn Bob]

I think the Indiana harbor and Walter j McCarthy along with the American spirit would be the first to go to scrap. They could always convert the Speer to an on deck self unloading boom like the gott which I know is costly but the Speer is one of the newer footers and still in great shape. We can all speculate on here what our opinion is as to which footer will be the first to scrap but we won’t know for sure until it actually happens. And like the previous post on here said there are crews still working on these ships and we are talking about there jobs being terminated when there ship goes to scrap so I hope the economy gets better and these ships will keep sailing as long as possible so the men and woman that work on these ships can keep there jobs and support there families!

[Guest]

Thanks for posting the Chronical-Telegram ad for reward. Why were the vessels damaged? Was there a dispute with the yard or shipping companies?

American Shipbuilding workers went out on strike on August 1978, and the strike lasted a year. The strike delayed the planned conversion of the Elton Hoyt 2nd (now Michipicoten) and Edward B. Greene (now Kaye E. Barker) over the Winter of 1978-79 by one year. It also delayed completion of the Edgar B. Speer by several months.

National Steel had Hull 907 towed from Lorain to Detroit at the last minute where she was christened at Cobo Hall on August 21, 1978, and then towed to Nicholson's Dock in Ecorse for completion of work.

Cleveland-Cliffs had the Walter A. Sterling towed from Lorain to Toledo to have her conversion completed at Hans Hansen Welding.

[Guest]

Correction: The $10,000 reward (today nearly $50,000) was offered by AmShip and not the prosecutor. But AmShip did refer all tips to the Lorain County prosecutor.

[Guest]

Thanks for posting the Chronical-Telegram ad for reward. Why were the vessels damaged? Was there a dispute with the yard or shipping companies?

[Matt]

As for which footers go to scrap first, Walter J. McCarthy Jr. and Indiana Harbor were both reported to be experiencing significant structural steel integrity issues 20 years ago; given the recent "maintenance" "philosophy" of those ships' previous and current owners, one cannot imagine that those ships have found themselves in much better condition after two more decades of sailing hard.

I believe the above post is spot-on.

I would say the Indiana Harbor is in the worst shape of any of them. I also have heard of the steel integrity issues previously mentioned. The Indiana Harbor had a bulkhead collapse while loading in Silver Bay just a few years ago.

[Guest]

While not as specialized as the Cort, I always wondered about the American Spirit (Formerly George A. Stinson). She seems to have had quite a bit of trouble over the years. In my younger days (1970s-1980s) I had heard rumors of it having some issues due to labor troubles at American Ship Building during its construction such as extra piping that led to nowhere or taking unnecessary circuitous routings, etc. I don't know how true these stories were or if they were either fake or embellished during repeated tellings but I do believe that the ship was moved from Lorain to Detroit for commissioning (and further work if my memory is not faulty) to avoid having it getting caught in the yard in response to an upcoming strike deadline. Again, I don't know how true all of this is.

The rumor of American Spirit being vandalized during construction at Lorain, Ohio is true, because the Lorain County prosecutor had an ad in the November 16, 1978 Elyria, Ohio in the Elyria, Ohio Chronical-Telegram in which a $10,000 reward was offered for any information leading to the arrest and conviction of the person or persons responsible for the damage done to Hull 907 (George A. Stinson, later American Spirit) and the Walter A. Sterling during her conversion to a self-unloader.

[Duluth guest]

Any chance Cliffs would try to pick one up “cheep”? Move more of their own product and cut out the middleman? I know they got out of shipping in the mid 80’s, but they didn’t out the mills at the time.

Note - this part of the reply to Larry's question above is pure speculation, and does not come from any inside-industry knowledge: Individual ships aside, at this point there seem to be two entire U.S.-flagged fleets that might be possibilities for acquisition if Cliffs were interested.

As for which footers go to scrap first, Walter J. McCarthy Jr. and Indiana Harbor were both reported to be experiencing significant structural steel integrity issues 20 years ago; given the recent "maintenance" "philosophy" of those ships' previous and current owners, one cannot imagine that those ships have found themselves in much better condition after two more decades of sailing hard. Additionally, as has been mentioned before, American Spirit seems to have been plagued with issues in recent years as well, and has also been a part of a fleet for decades now that seems to avoid all but the bare minimum of maintenance outlays.

Each of those 3 ships likely has 3-4 years before their next 5-year surveys are due. Given the enormous amount of uncertainty and upheaval the Great Lakes-region's steel economy could experience over the next few years, it seems fairly difficult to venture a guess at this moment as to what any ship's future holds, let alone the three 'footers' mentioned in this post.