Marquette & Bessemer #2

[jgorski4]

Can anyone tell me who I would have to contact concerning. 1) How thick the ice gets at lake Erie, especially in the area where the M&B #2 (1) dissapeared. 2) where can I get recent sonar charts of Lake Erie.

Thanks

[jgorski4]

After the holiday's, I'm going to try and contact some of the museum's and authors on this. But for now, to one and all, have a very safe and happy Christmas, and a wondeorus new year. :D

[Brent]

To answer the question about the Milwaukee not exploding from trapped air, could be that if she sank bow first the air would escape through the car deck. The second is that the Milwaukee is not in very deep water and chances are that if she sank stern first the stern hit bottom while the bow was still on the surface.

[MilwBob]

Just found some information on the Milwakee; from the letter found in the ships canister, it states that cars got loose and went through the sea gate. Pictures from the dive show that maybe one string got through; the gate is bent into a "W". there was one hung up on the gate, and one or two across the rails. There were cars still on their rails inside the Milwakee.

The only difference between the M&B 2 (1) and the pm 18 (1) was that both (M&B 2 (1) with circumstantial evidence) exploded as they went down, from trapped air in the bow. But the Milwakee (1) didn't and it was the larger of the two, and carried more people and cars.

Actually the letter in the canister-written by the purser-makes no mention of rail cars: it merely states that "the sea gate is bent in & can't keep the water out". It should be noted that the Milwaukee did not have a gate when built in 1902-it was added only after the GrandTrunk bought her in '08, and was only 5' high. After her loss in '29, the other ferry operators agrred on a minimum gate height of 8'6". It is possible some of the cars came out as the ship sank; at least one car has been observed underneath the stern of the ship. The definitive book on Great Lake ferry operations is "Great Lakes Car Ferries" by George W. Hilton. Originally published in 1962, copies are readily available on Amazon & often seen on eBay.

[Shawn]

Actually the Pere Marquette 18 and Milwaukee as built were exact replicas of each other. The Marquette Bessemer 2 had the same hull design as the other two but had smaller cabins. The original Marquette Bessemer 2 was build on the plans of the Pere Marquette 19 and Pere Marquette 20.

There were several boats built with the same hull design, including the Pere Marquette 17, 18 (I), 19, and 20, the Marquette and Bessemer No. 2 (II), and the Milwaukee (built as Manistique, Marquette, and Northern #1).

Note that the Milwaukee and PM 18 (I), while very similar, were not quite identical. Their triple expansion steam engines were not quite the same size, and their boilers weren't even of the same type.

The Ashtabula had the same basic hull but had a slightly deeper draft, while the Maitland No. 1 and Ann Arbor No. 6 (started as Maitland No. 2) had a slightly shallower draft. The second Pere Marquette 18 had both a wider beam and deeper draft.

The first Marquette and Bessemer No. 2 was unique among the carferries of this vintage in that it had a slightly narrower beam at 54' compared to 56' of the others.

Of those early boats, the PM 17, PM 18 (II), and Ann Arbor No. 6 had passenger accommodations but not for her full length, the PM 18 (I) and Milwaukee had full-length passenger cabins, and the remainder were freight-only boats with no passenger cabins. This would have included both Marquette and Bessemer No. 2 boats, Ashtabula, Maitland No. 1, and PM 19 and 20.

It is also critical to note that the Marquette and Bessemer No. 2 (I) had the lowest HP of any of them, at 2280 (same as PM 19 and 20), compared to the 3000 HP of both the PM 18 and Milwaukee. One has to wonder if that played a role in her loss.

[Guest3]

Actually the Pere Marquette 18 and Milwaukee as built were exact replicas of each other. The Marquette Bessemer 2 had the same hull design as the other two but had smaller cabins. The original Marquette Bessemer 2 was build on the plans of the Pere Marquette 19 and Pere Marquette 20.

[jgorski4]

Just found some information on the Milwakee; from the letter found in the ships canister, it states that cars got loose and went through the sea gate. Pictures from the dive show that maybe one string got through; the gate is bent into a "W". there was one hung up on the gate, and one or two across the rails. There were cars still on their rails inside the Milwakee.

The only difference between the M&B 2 (1) and the pm 18 (1) was that both (M&B 2 (1) with circumstantial evidence) exploded as they went down, from trapped air in the bow. But the Milwakee (1) didn't and it was the larger of the two, and carried more people and cars.

[Brent]

Are you thinking you sure you are not thinking of the Milwaukee? The PM-18 sank from massive flooding from an unknown source, possibly a crack from her summer use as a excursion boat. The Milwaukee was just over come by weather and I believe she did have a sea gate though it ws bent. As far as the No. 2's rail cars if there is a string of them and I never heard of this I assume that they either got away and went over or were dumped by the crew to lighten the vessel. Anyone have more info on the cars?

[Jared]

It is very difficult to obtain a permit to use the side scan. The bureaucracy of going to get one deters even the most avid wreck hunters. You have to have someone from the government on your boat, they want to know where you have been and what you have found. They will declare the wreck off limits until archeological surveys are done and then release it to the public and it will eventually be stripped like the Wexford. Plus in order to obtain a permit, you must be a company and have some sort of credentials in other subjects.

[jgorski4]

Amen to that Brent. Many of these are tombs, and should be treated as hallowed ground.

The debris that floated ashore wasn't the rail cars; there was some from the M&B #2 that was near Erie. Someone found the coal cars about 20 or so miles from Channute (sp?)

I've been studying the p&m 18, and it looks like what happend to the 18 happened to the #2

[Brent]

The first three things that were required on the replacement No. 2 were a sea gate, a closed pilot house and wireless. They seemed to have learned well from their omissions on the first ferry. I have never heard of coal cars floating ashore. As far as looking for the ferry on the Canadian side it should not be a problem as long as you get a permit, and be responsible and don't take anything. I think that our neighbors to the north are just as interested in these ship wrecks as we are. They ask that we treat them with respect and that is all anyone wants. Maybe some divers or researchers from Canada will find her. It really doesn't matter. I would just like some day for the mystery to be solved.

[Jared]

I am thinking she lies on the Canadian side of the lake. Due to the fact that the American side of the lake has been surveyed well, and because of Canada's laws, we cannot go over there to search for her.

[MilwBob]

A photo for the M&B #2 is a treasured find. The only picture I know of is from the BGSU archive.

That's the second M&B No. 2. The first one had an open pilothouse

[jgorski4]

That photo is the first page of my research. :D I found one version of this photo with a darker hue; it had a wireless radio antena's strung between the masts. But, nowhere in my up to now research mentions anything about a wireless? More questions.

I'm going to be looking for that book; thank's again to everyone for the help. And before I forget, everyone to you and your families, have a safe and happy Christmas, and a wonderous new year.

[Timerover51]

Was she coal-fired or oil-fired? If coal-fired, and the crew was abandoning ship, it is very likely that the steam would have been blown off, and with no stokers, the fires would have basically been drawn down, so I would rate the possibility of a boiler explosion as pretty low. As for the bow exploding from compressed air, that is possible, but would leave the midships and stern section intact. More likely, the rivets would fail first, and allow the compressed air to vent.

For the coal hopper cars to float to shore, they would have to be empty. Is that correct? Is there an accurate plot of where the cars were located when washed ashore? Four hundred square miles is not that much when you consider that the ship was under power most of the time, and steaming in an unknown direction at the time of abandonment. It would be hard to say how much she might have drifted prior to sinking.

[Dave O]

One book highly recommended would be Long Gone - The mystery of the Marquette and Bessemer No.2 The author is David R. Frew of Erie PA and was published in 2002 Copywright by the Erie County Historical Society & Museums.

[Guest 2]

A photo for the M&B #2 is a treasured find. The only picture I know of is from the BGSU archive.

[jgorski4]

Thank you, this is very helpful. Are there any books, and films, concerning the M&B #2 that anyone can recomend?

[MilwBob]

Thank you all for the input. I've read where a few years later someone found the rail cars that were in the M&B, a few miles from where people say they heard her whistle, on the Ohio Shore line. With ice build up, would it have been wise to cut the cars loose to keep the back a float? And could the boilers have exploded? I remember an episode of Deep sea investigators looking for another such vessell in lake Michigan. But, if ice cold water hit the boilers, what are the chances of most of the ship exploding? Which would answer why those found on the life raft were from that end of the ship; they could have seen the water coming in.

That would be the SS Milwaukee, a sister ship to the M&B No. 2 & the PM 18. They did a program on her about 5 or so years ago. The boilers on her are intact; other than a damaged seagate the only thing that came off her was the pilothouse. If they were launching boats on the No. 2, I would assume that they had shut the boilers down so they wouldn't blow.

It is feasible they may have jettisoned some rail cars; this was done on the PM 18 before she sank.

[jgorski4]

Ah, the plot thickens. So, instead of looking for a whole ship, it would be better to look for pieces. When the found Capt. McLoid, and the other two crewmen, that could account for the slash marks, that was on the bodies. Shrapnel, and or glass instead of mutiny?