St. Clair on Fire News Update

Discussion board focusing on Great Lakes Shipping Question & Answer. From beginner to expert all posts are welcome.
Larry64

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by Larry64 »

Guest wrote: As a lone person, if a fire extinguisher cannot put out the fire, then you run. Fires are unpredictable and escalate very, very quickly. No situation is worth risking your life for, especially if other lives are not in peril.

Absolutely, sometimes you just get out and fight it from outside. Also once you need to put on and air pack, OSHA two in and two out rules kick in. One person has to run.
Lakeport
Posts: 48
Joined: December 12, 2017, 5:36 pm

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by Lakeport »

I remember when the ships were laid up in Thunder Bay at Keefer Terminal when I worked on them the Ship's Keeper lived on board the vessel. They were allowed 2 hours per day off the ship. I used to do a lot of favors for the Ship Keepers because by the time a taxi or bus was used to get you around you could not get much done. I would even run and rent movies or pick up something they wanted that the company didn't supply for them on my own time because they were good people. A Ship's Keeper was required to do a full walk through at certain times and it was up to the company I worked for to supply firewatch for the work we were doing. The Ship's Keeper as far as I'm concerned without definite proof of irresponsibility is not responsible. Everyone is allowed a little shore leave.

Just my 2 cents
Guest

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

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Guest wrote:I don't see how someone can be keeping an eye on the ship 24/7. What happens if the person has a medical emergency or has to see the doctor. Does a spare ship-keeper cover for him?

This is precisely the reason I can't believe that they don't have some type of 24-hour electronic monitoring systems like you can buy for a home or business that will at least alert for break-ins and smoke/fire.
Guest

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

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I don't see how someone can be keeping an eye on the ship 24/7. What happens if the person has a medical emergency or has to see the doctor. Does a spare ship-keeper cover for him?
GuestfromEU
Posts: 359
Joined: December 7, 2014, 10:33 am

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by GuestfromEU »

Bookworm wrote:So, are ship keepers allowed time away from the ship to shop or go out to eat or is this a 24/7 for the duration of lay-up?
The standard procedure wass to have one person (shipkeeper) roam between all of the laid-up vessels. In past years with ASC and Oglebay Norton, nobody lived on board each ship 24/7. It was usually a Toledo or Twin Ports local resident - could be an Engineer, but could have easily been a Wheelsman, a Mate, or anyone else. If they found an issue, they could call someone.

Remember, the laid-up ship has no running water and no heat. It would not be very comfortable to live in that condition.

I believe other fleets may operate differently, as evidenced by the recent Algoma incident, and they may maintain their vessels in a wet lay-up status (heat and running water available).
Guest

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

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All the reports I've seen mention welding work earlier in the day.
Bookworm

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by Bookworm »

So, are ship keepers allowed time away from the ship to shop or go out to eat or is this a 24/7 for the duration of lay-up?
Guest

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by Guest »

If you go back through the reports the Toledo Blade Reported there were welders onboard but went home after finishing for the day. The Coast Guard reported there was no one on board or welding when the Fire department showed up Saturday night.
clarkjol wrote:Bob: Who said there was welding on the St. Clair?
Guest

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

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The February 22 article in the Welland Tribune, which discusses a smoke scare on a vessel wintering in Port Colborne, is a stunning contrast to the situation in Toledo with the St. Clair. The article speaks for itself:

A ship-keeper's quick actions averted a potential fire on board the Algoma Guardian Wednesday night in Port Colborne.

Port Colborne Fire and Emergency Services Chief Tom Cartwright said alarms on the vessel, docked on Barber Drive, alerted the ship-keeper to a problem. Cartwright said the man found smoke in a control room area and he shut down power to the ship, which was coming from a shore-based power station.

"They were lucky he picked up there was a problem."

When vessels dock for winter maintenance or just dock for the winter season, the fire service boards them all. "As soon as they come in the crews go on board and find out where the ship-keeper will be, where the records are … we prebuild a fire plan for every ship that is tied up."


Wow. Just Wow.
clarkjol

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by clarkjol »

Bob: Who said there was welding on the St. Clair? All reports to this point in time, has stated no welding was being done on the St. Clair the day of the fire.
Bob

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by Bob »

Why wasn't the watchman on board? You would think that especially having a welding crew doing work on the ship that you would for sure want to have the watchman there just for the specific reason of a fire may breakout. Don't they have watchman around the clock during layup?
Guest

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

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Yes, a vessel in layup status with all fire lines drained and open to prevent freezing requires attention to preventing fires in the first place. One man can not fight a fully involved fire safely. Early detection and reporting with a posted fire watch is the key. A lot of hard lessons will be learned from this. It will be the main topic during the spring meetings this year. During our fire on the Sterling we were in port unloading with most of the off watch crew uptown visiting family from the area. Early detection and reporting resulted in putting out this fire quickly.
Guest

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by Guest »

Has anyone heard of how the fire was first reported to the fire department? Was anyone aboard at the time or did the fire first get noticed by someone in the vicinity? It seems strange that in today's era that there was not some sort of smoke alarm system that could remotely report a fire such as several commercial alarm companies provide to businesses and home owners.
GuestfromEU
Posts: 359
Joined: December 7, 2014, 10:33 am

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by GuestfromEU »

Guest wrote:The advance fire training at Toledo was excellent training. I went there twice during my career. It was far more advance than the training I had at Great Lakes training center in Wisconsin back in the 70’s. If procedures had been followed correctly, the fire on the St Clair would have been detected long before it involved the entire vessel. We successfully controlled and extinguished a fire on the Str Water A. Sterling containing it to one compartment which contain a diesel fuel tank for the unloading generators.
The Toledo training centre was quite good. The instructors were very thorough and took their profession seriously. This is based on my attendance in the late 1990s.

That said, there were few people on board the vessel at the time the fire started. Those who were on board were outside contractors, who have little to no training in fire fighting (especially shipboard firefighting). The fire lines aboard the St Clair were drained, empty, and not available. The contractors would have been limited to portable extinguishers, and that is assuming not only were they were the correct type, but also they were even properly trained in their use. Maybe the shoreside fire department connected via the International Shore Connection (assuming the ship had one)? There was no central fire monitoring system available, not that any personnel were aboard to respond anyway.

I have read the Shipkeeper mentioned in some replies here. Had this individual been aboard during or after the contractors finished their work, and the subsequent fire, I believe the smartest thing this person could have done is to evacuate the vessel. As a lone person, if a fire extinguisher cannot put out the fire, then you run. Fires are unpredictable and escalate very, very quickly. No situation is worth risking your life for, especially if other lives are not in peril.
Charlie
Posts: 135
Joined: April 19, 2010, 10:32 pm

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by Charlie »

First off:

I would like to thank the people at Boatnerd for putting up the notice about the fire so quickly Great job

I would also like tho thank the people who sent in there pictures

Did a salvage company get hired yet?

'swim trunks' is talking about ownership and design of the St Clair

here is the skinny on that:

The 1,000 Belle River & 770 St Clair were built and owned by Detroit Edison power company the name are from there plants locations

ASC had a contract to manage and operate the vessels the power company with all cost being payed by the power company.

the cargo whole was designed for Max coal capacity at draft

There was also a clause in the contract that ASC could buy the boats and got a hauling contract to boot.

Interlake did not like this and got the state of Michigan involved and courts and that is how Interlake got some of the coal going in to St Clair and Monrroe I believe the other plant on Sag Bay is a different contract with ASC [might be wrong but never seen interlake in there unloading

they were built as Coal boats

charlie
Guest

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by Guest »

The advance fire training at Toledo was excellent training. I went there twice during my career. It was far more advance than the training I had at Great Lakes training center in Wisconsin back in the 70’s. If procedures had been followed correctly, the fire on the St Clair would have been detected long before it involved the entire vessel. We successfully controlled and extinguished a fire on the Str Water A. Sterling containing it to one compartment which contain a diesel fuel tank for the unloading generators.
Denny

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by Denny »

If anyone has not seen it on You Tube there is a link on the KYS Facebook page that has a video taken aboard the St. Clair which was several years ago. https://youtu.be/6f5ZktauCUI The length of video is 28 minutes long and is from Larry Baker and is definitely well worth taking the time out and watching and viewing it. I just got done watching it myself and was very impressed and learned a lot of information about the ship and many other things all Great Lakes related. So check it out on You Tube videos sometime boatnerds and see for yourself what you think of that video! I only wish there was a way of getting a DVD copy of it as I'd love to have one. If anyone knows who or how to get a copy please post it here for all of us. Thank You.
Guest

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

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I could see this incident bringing about a several lengthy legal disputes similar to that which resulted from the rampage of the steamer Mac Gilvray Shiras at Buffalo, New York, in 1959. I believe that these were not fully resolved until the 1970s.
Guest

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by Guest »

I think we're assuming that the cost of repair doesn't exceed the market value of the ship. But based on the age of the St. Clair and the extent of damages that are very likely to exceed it's market value, would it not be the case that insurance (anyone know if ASC is self-insured) may decide, or whoever decides, that cost of repairs can't be justified. If a ship is insured for $10 million, and the cost of repair is $25 million, then who pays the difference in that case? Is it insurance or the owner?
Lakeport
Posts: 48
Joined: December 12, 2017, 5:36 pm

Re: St. Clair on Fire News Update

Unread post by Lakeport »

Very well said GuestfromEU. It will be awhile unfortunately before anything is known. There is a lot of what-if's but up to the investigators to determine what was.
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