Lower Lakes being sold?

[guest]

Another great opportunity to own the Valo again.

[algowest]

This will be interesting. With declining coal/ore cargoes, Algoma may be eyeing this opportunity to pull the trigger and remove a smaller competitor, from the Canadian side. It's all about the contracts, and with less coal/ore cargo to move, Algoma may be able to absorb Lower Lakes contracts with their existing fleet. Or, perhaps hold onto Lower Lakes boats in order to check condition and compare to their seasonally laid-up tonnage (Compass, Discovery). Curious with the timing of Manitoulin and Kaministiqua surveys. Those surveys would have been planned long before end of season (to secure spots), and maybe those two are the planned ones to keep running, at least short term.

[Guest]

I’d assume the US ships are all safe as they are Jones act compliant! The Kaministiqua just past her survey so if Algoma could use her I’m sure she is in as good of shape as the Croatian ships Algoma already has.Time will tell!

[Guest]

Lower lakes acquired 330 million in debt during their expansion, they were salvaged from bankruptcy over 15 years ago by rand acquisitions. The Michipicoten failure was not caused by one load, it was caused by decades of aggressive loading and inadequate repair. Vessels deteriorate over their lifetime, they have to be properly managed from year 1. It is not cost effective to make 15 years of repair to a vessel in one winter, to be effective, the repair and cost must have started 15 years ago. It is not the sole responsibility of current ownership, it is the responsibility of all previous owner. The rumour is, Algoma has bought all lower lakes assets. Now, the greatest asset lower lakes every had, its crew, may finally get the leadership it needs to be successful.

I fully agree, in principle, about your statement that the responsibility of properly managing the care of a ship also rests with all of its previous owners. However, it would seem that when a vessel is purchased then that owner becomes solely responsible for the current condition of the vessel at that point and any further deterioration that occurs from that point forward. The current owner had an opportunity to assess the ship's condition before its purchase and the only variance I could see is in a case in which a previous owner could be held accountable is if they had concealed some type of defect prior to the sale. It would seem not much different than purchasing an existing home or used automobile, as the buyer it is your responsibility to fully assess the property you are purchasing before completing the sale. Regardless, when Lower Lakes purchased the Elton Hoyt 2nd they assumed responsibility for that vessel.

[Guest]

If true and if they have cargo to haul, they're not going to be able to avoid utilizing them to some degree. Operational ships with valid surveys or ships that can be returned to service economically, if they're needed Algoma is going to utilize them.

But the only one with a long-term future is obviously the only new ship in the fleet. And even then, the stern section is approaching ancient territory if it were still trading on saltwater. So Algoma may have to look into doing a repowering job if she starts developing major powerplant issues (I assume she wasn't repowered at the time?) and if they want to maximize the life of her 2015 forebody.

Even the Saginaw and Michipicoten, both of which I don't want to think of as a goners, are approaching the end in a few years in the best of cases. Saginaw is approaching the 20th anniversary on her repowering and the Michipicoten her 15th. Those major investments, while still some of the most efficient engine rooms on the lakes (especially if we include the US side), aren't exactly brand new at this point.

If the ongoing and fluid Algoma rumors prove to have some basis in reality, is it just the Canadian side and not Grand River Navigation/American Steamship? Or will Algoma actually setup a US subsidiary? While some of the 70's era river classic vessels and the ATB's are well worn, there's a good number of vessels there that appear likely to have a lot of life in them if needed like the John J. Boland.

[Guest]

If it’s true Algoma acquired the assets then I can only see them wanting the Manitoulin! The rest purchased to keep them away from a competitor!

[ordinaryseafarer]

Lower lakes acquired 330 million in debt during their expansion, they were salvaged from bankruptcy over 15 years ago by rand acquisitions. The Michipicoten failure was not caused by one load, it was caused by decades of aggressive loading and inadequate repair. Vessels deteriorate over their lifetime, they have to be properly managed from year 1. It is not cost effective to make 15 years of repair to a vessel in one winter, to be effective, the repair and cost must have started 15 years ago. It is not the sole responsibility of current ownership, it is the responsibility of all previous owner. The rumour is, Algoma has bought all lower lakes assets. Now, the greatest asset lower lakes every had, its crew, may finally get the leadership it needs to be successful.

[Guest]

The lack of investing in the fleet is definitely going to be its downfall, so I think this latest "Guest" will be proven correct.

I'm the guest that has gotten a good look at the Michipicoten and doesn't believe it's time yet to write her obituary, followed by looking like a fool by doubting the Kaministiqua has a future just days after she passed her survey. Yet all that aside, I remember when this company was rapidly growing, excelling, and becoming a threat to the bigger operations on the lakes (fleets that went from seeing an opportunity to sell their retired hulls for a bit more to scrap value to intentionally throwing up any roadblock to Lower Lakes getting their hands on their retired vessels).

You never saw any concern from sailors, boatnerds, and such that they weren't doing the right thing back then. You never saw people saying that the Maumee and Calumet were death traps, despite being older and far more ripe when Lower Lakes got their hands on them than ships like the Michipicoten. Lower Lakes was deserving of respect but now they're known around the lakes for their mismanagement of their assets and all the trust is gone.

Declines and retraction is inevitable and not the fault of any fleets on the Great Lakes. You need cargo to fill the hold of a ship and when industries close, relocate, or shift away from some commodity it means empty ships. But you see the better ran fleets preparing for this future while still investing into their operations and even looking for fresh opportunities (like Interlake's Mark W. Barker that was designed to be versatile and carry non-traditional loads when the opportunity presents itself).

Lower Lakes isn't doing anything of the sort.

[guest]

Lower Lakes didn't want to pay for it.

Write it on their tombstone. No matter how many rebrands they go through. Low pay and no upkeep will sink Rand/ASC/Lower Lakes and whatever they are calling themselves now. The guys getting suited up for next sailing season must have a pretty grim feeling. I know I would.

Sorry Guest,
You know zero.

[Geest]

Lower Lakes didn't want to pay for it.

Write it on their tombstone. No matter how many rebrands they go through. Low pay and no upkeep will sink Rand/ASC/Lower Lakes and whatever they are calling themselves now. The guys getting suited up for next sailing season must have a pretty grim feeling. I know I would.

[Guest]

Is the St Lawrence River salt water? Where does salt water stop and fresh water start?

There is no abrupt transition from salt water to fresh water, instead there is mixing of the water types along the length of the river. The St. Lawrence river is fresh water from Lake Ontario to near Trois Rivers, PQ. From there the water becomes brackish between Ile d'Orleans to Ile aux Coudres, then fully salt water from Pointe-des-Monts.

[Ronald Eckstein]

From my deck hand days in the 70s I seem to remember when returning from Sept Illes, the First Mate taking up buckets of water from the St. Lawrence River around the Quebec City area to start testing for water freshness. Once it was full fresh water they could open up the intakes and we'd start hosing down the decks. I imagine the precise location of fresh to salt varies according to tides and river flows.

[Guest]

Is the St Lawrence River salt water? Where does salt water stop and fresh water start?

[algowest]

I can't speak to shipowner maintenance, but, I will say, based on trip routing, Kam has been in more freshwater since her return to Lakes in 2006, compared to Birchglen (scrapped 2015) and Spruceglen. She's been on a steady run from Thunder Bay to Sorel, or from Thunder Bay to Windsor. Very rare to see her go down the St. Lawrence in ballast for return load back to Lakes (and saltwater ballast in her tanks, ugghhh!!) So, that's helped her interior lower hull condition, I would think. Certainly the 16 locks in that Th. Bay to Sorel trip take their toll on the outer hull though.

[Guest]

Surprised to hear that the Kaministiqua just passed her survey. I was obviously way off the mark writing her off. I've not had the opportunity to ever be aboard her, but she's apparently a survivor that isn't ready to call it a career just yet. Given her long career, her ownership and their policy of doing just the bare minimum, and virtually all of her contemporaries having gone to the breakers yard, I made the age old mistake to assume.

[Guest]

Hard to take bets made by anonymous posters. 😂

[algowest]

This response is concerning Michipicoten, I assume. Hard to follow some responses when multiple ships are being mentioned.

Bet you a steak dinner she never sails again. It’s ripe rotten and no steady cargo for her. Try getting a competent crew for her😂.

[Guest]

Bet you a steak dinner she never sails again. It’s ripe rotten and no steady cargo for her. Try getting a competent crew for her😂.

[Guest]

The Kaministiqua just came out of drydock at Erie where she got her five year and sailed to Sarnia. So she should presumably have 5 or 6 years left at least.

[Guest]

She passed her last survey and isn't a wreck internally. The forced early survey after this incident was mandated out of caution to make sure that not only has the direct structural damage been fully repaired like the shipyard is confident has been, but also to ensure that it wasn't a symptom of a major hidden problem. She came close to sinking and had a few things been a little different, there could've easily been causalities.

Her modern engine room from back when Lower Lakes actually was investing into the future of their fleet rather than just buying band-aids, her fresh water career, her 1950's era construction (versus the lightweight high tensile steel builds of the 70's), and lack of salt hauls leaves her not at a dead end in her career. I think she'll survive the incompetence of Lower Lakes management in recent years that has killed what once was a positive asset for Great Lakes shipping thanks to forcing out their competent early leadership that had quickly made Lower Lakes a force to be reckoned with.

Some are no doubt goners of course. The Kaministiqua is an obvious example. She's years past the retirement of most of her contemporaries on the Canadian side of the Lakes (and one of her two sisters has been gone a decade now), hasn't had the TLC that CSL has given the Spruceglen, has seen a lot of salt water time and trips through locks, etc. Hard to imagine Algoma or CSL being interested given her age and years of deferred maintenance at Lower Lakes. CSL would be better off investing in their well cared for Spruceglen to extend her career rather than throwing money at reversing years of Lower Lakes lack of care for the Kaministiqua to get her in shape for maybe 5-6 more years.

Kaministiqua literally just passed a five year survey two weeks ago.