St. Clair on Fire News Update

[Darryl]

Excellent photos in Today's (Tuesday) Boatnerd News of the fire's aftermath.

[GuestfromEU]

There is much speculation as to the condition of the vessel, all of which is only guessing at this point. While guessing makes interesting conversation, it is not particularly helpful.

What is known is that the vessel is damaged. Can it be repaired? Of course. Only the cost of repairs, and the relationship to the vessel value, will determine whether repairs are justified. A "total loss" is quite a premature statement, at the very least. This is a ship, not an automobile. While a modern auto may easily be recycled for seemingly minor damage, I have see heavily damaged ships be repaired (Google "Maersk Homan").

While firefighting teams have likely been in the internal machinery structures of the St Clair, it is doubtful that any non-essential personnel have been aboard. The NTSB is investigating, and they will be the next group on board. ABS will be in attendance, along with the USCG, P&I Club, and then company and contractor representatives.

The first step will be determining fault. This could be solely at the feet of the welding company, if determined their work started the fire, and they did not provide adequate fire prevention (e.g. fire extinguishers, fire blankets, fire watch personnel, etc.)

However, the welding contractor may not be 100% at-fault. It was noted that only one of four fire hydrants on the dock were functional. Who has the responsibility of maintaining these hydrants? Is it the dock owner? When the lease agreement between ASC and the dock owner was signed, were operable fire hydrants explicitly stated? Did ASC's P&I Club approve the mooring plan based on operable fire hydrants? Would those inoperable fire hydrants have made a difference in the firefighting capabilities? Would the Fire Department claim that additional hydrants could have extinguished the fire sooner (thus reducing the extent of damage)?

Did ASC maintain any liability in this? It is possible, but difficult to ascertain from any facts publicly known.

Once the root cause of the fire is determined, and all variables are considered, final liability percentages will be assessed. After this step, it will still be some time before claims are paid out. I do not know which jurisdiction will hear this case - Ohio, New York, or Delaware - nor whether ASC's P&I Club will immediately pay the repair claim or withhold funds until liability is assessed.

These are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of questions to be answered before any accurate assessment can be determined.

For now, we can think of the Cartiercliffe Hall, the most recent catastrophic damage of this extent. It was rebuilt and worked many more years.

[Guest]

"Fire Department did not follow fire plan". I challenge that statement. Municipal fire departments really don't have training in ship board fires. We fight house and building fires, we run medical calls, we cut people out of cars. A ship fire has many challenges, Haz-mat, confined space, RIT, ventilation, egress, and so on. A plan is one thing, the company paying for detailed training is another. Also it looks like the dock had limited hydrants. Those are private, not municipal. Was the locale jurisdiction given and opportunity to do pre fire surveys and do inspections? 36 years on the job, sorry.

I worked for several years on the waterfront in toledo and did several shipboard training exercises from fire simulation training to injury rescue with several fire departments in the area. I know they also used the Museum ship for training also.

[ashland69]

I commented earlier in this thread and made one suggestion that if American Valor was still flying the US flag, maybe ASC could buy it back from Algoma, do a five-year and steel work on her, update the shipboard equipment, etc. - maybe convert it to diesel employing a couple train diesels - and bring her out this Fall - maybe. However, all that said, I understand that the Valor is Canadian-flagged, so the foregoing is apparently quite pointless. At this junction, I'm thinking that GLF might fast track the five-year and steel work on the Anderson and bring her out to pick up what they can of the St. Clair's cargo consignment for this year and next. Beyond that, if the hull has been warped by the heat of the fire, I suspect it will be deemed a constructive total loss and end up at Port Colbourne. If the hull is OK, my inclinations favor a complete rebuild at Sturgeon Bay or Erie.

[Bob]

If they do decide to rebuild the st.clair they will probably tow it to sturgeon bay to do the repairs wouldn't they or would it get repaired where it sits?

[Larry64]

"Fire Department did not follow fire plan". I challenge that statement. Municipal fire departments really don't have training in ship board fires. We fight house and building fires, we run medical calls, we cut people out of cars. A ship fire has many challenges, Haz-mat, confined space, RIT, ventilation, egress, and so on. A plan is one thing, the company paying for detailed training is another. Also it looks like the dock had limited hydrants. Those are private, not municipal. Was the locale jurisdiction given and opportunity to do pre fire surveys and do inspections? 36 years on the job, sorry.

[Denny]

The Soo Locks have opened early in the last few years NOT often but maybe a couple of times in the last 5-10 years. One year the Mesabi Miner was the first ship and it opened 12 hours or so ahead of schedule. As for the Locks opening earlier and staying open late, I don’t think this would work but not just because of the set opening and closing dates but of the conditions of the ice on the Great Lakes especially up in Lake Superior along with the Straits of Mackinaw and Whitefish Bay all of which seems to get the most ice coverage. Then there’s the Coast Guard as they would have a heck of a time keeping the ice clear and from jamming up and causing issues. I don’t even know if there’s enough breakers here now to help with any major jams as it seems like the Canadians are sending in their “Heavy Hitters every year or so like the Radisson and the Martha L. Black to help clear and to flush the ice out.” Then there is the issue of ice damages to the hulls as one year there were several ships in for repairs due to ice damage. That was costing the ship owners mega millions in repairs just what they don’t need!

[Guest]

I doubt that the Soo Locks can open earlier than March 25 to accomodate a loss of tonnage in the ASC fleet. It's opening date is set in the Federal Register and was reached after an agreement with Michigan state Natural Resources.

[Denny]

Thanks for the update orangeshirt on the Shipkeeper and very glad indeed to hear that he is safe and thank goodness he was not on the ship at the time and was trapped. For Jon Paul, great points there sir on the Roger Blough Fire as I would’ve forgotten all about that one and the fact that it took nearly a year after that fire for her to enter service. Another serious fire if many recall happened in June 1979 during which the Cartiercliffe Hall caught fire. I won’t go into details other than the fact that the fire completely destroyed the accommodations block and it was taken to Collingwood Shipyards to have the aft cabins rebuilt to which they were. The point is if many recall, the Cartiercliffe Hall did indeed return to service nearly a year later after this horrific and terrible fire in late May 1980. You can read about that one and see the pictures here in the Fleet Photo Galleries under scrapped ships and Algontario. There is one question though I’d like to ask about the St. Clair fire and it’s been on my mind. Could they have swung the unloading boom out to the port side as it was on fire and would this have helped or made any difference? I suppose probably not but it was a thought that I did have.

[Charlie]

Here is my 2 cent from servicing these boat and having a father that was a chief for ASC for 47 years

1. we just have to wait and see what happen here. time will tell us

2. no matter the fleet this would be very bad US or Canadian

3. from the design of bay boats and the paint missing on the stern i would say she was having conveyor work done.
the main belt is a loop belt going from the bow to the top of the boom with a squeeze belt to hold the cargo on the trip
the goes through the engine room and the house, you heat the wall and you got problems from the bow all the way to the boom

4.as mentioned there is a lot of people going to be fighting this

no water, keeper off, fire check after workers left, fire plan was not followed by the fire department, and the list goes on.

responsible people just as long and don't forget to include the contractor doing the job. yes the lawyers are going to be making a lot of money from this

5. I know in times past it was different and you could look for help and get it. in today's cut rate market i just don't know.
the lost tonnage needs to be made up some how but How!

6. open Soo early and stay open longer is an idea but don't think so
load deeper possible
trans load ships deep south of the Soo possible
run faster possible
farm some out possible

Will we ever know I don't think so
will we ever see what amount of damage only when USCG report comes out

I wish ASC all the luck in the world for what they face

I thank the Fire Fighters for what they did

I am glad the ship keep is all right and no loss of life

I hope and pray we get to see the nighty St. Clair out again and not on the end of a scrape tow




3 Long 2 Short to the St Clair

charlie's 2 cents

[orangeshirt]

For those who know Frank, the shipkeeper, he is safe. He was actually off the boat when the fire got going. He was very lucky in that he may have been trapped had he been in his room on A deck.

[Ed]

Simple fix, cut off the stern, make a notch and use the insurance to build a new tug- a sister to Presque Ile !

Not sure how good of an idea that would be, to build another Presque Isle. I know they've had real issues at times with the PI. I asked the retired chief mechanical engineer for the U.S. Steel Great Lakes Fleet once about the PI. I was wondering if they'd ever build another 1000' tug barge and his response was"You don't see anyone rushing out to build one,do you?"

[Jon Paul]

About the only comparable situation would be the fire on Roger Blog in 1971. That fire extensively damaged the engine room and aft accommodations.
That caused $13 million ( in 1972 dollars) in damages and took a year to fix. She was also in drydock at the time and still under construction.
It would appear that the damage to St Clair is far more extensive.
One possible option would be to charter the Clyde Van Enkevort/Erie Trader. It was chartered by ASC before and would be able to suplement what the rest of their fleet can't cover.

[Guest]

Ironically, I think the engines would be the easiest to replace. It is the auxiliaries that are going to be the real concern. Every bearing, every seal, pulley, hundreds of idler rollers, rubber-coated drive pulleys, all of the associated hydraulic lines down the length of the ship, gate seals, ballast valves, lighting, anything that had a seal or rubber component, will have to be yanked out. The ship being in dry lay up means that there was no water in the pipes to keep the pumps and valves cool enough to survive the heat. Water damage is easy. Fire damage chemically changes and ruins anything that is not steel.

[Guest]

With the focus so far being on the St. Clair, my question is, what about the assigned captain, mates and crew? Will they be spread out between the other ships in the fleet, remain on lay-up status, or have to look for another job?

The unlicensed crew is SIU. They can invoke company seniority on other ASC vessels or they can use their union seniority and register to ship on available jobs. I think the mates are MEBA, basically the same situation. Captains are company seniority.

[Ohio Bob]

Slightly off the main topic, but I never noticed how much space the St. Clair has behind the aft superstructure. Is this something particular to her? Any special use driving that design?

[hugh3]

Don't know about ship keeper but was there not someone doing hot work? If so there should also have been someone on fire watch!

Lots of the story still to come out...

[guest]

Was there a ship keeper aboard this ship or does this not happen anymore.

[Guest]

It could be a situation where the cost of repairs far exceeds the market value of the ship. I don't know if ASC is self-insured or not, but the insurance settlement could be less than the cost of repairs. Then ASC will have to think very hard about her future in their fleet.

[Bookworm]

With the focus so far being on the St. Clair, my question is, what about the assigned captain, mates and crew? Will they be spread out between the other ships in the fleet, remain on lay-up status, or have to look for another job?