St. Clair on Fire News Update

[Guest]

Good job Denny, There is one more agency that will have to inspect the St Claire. ABS, American Bureau of Shipping. This fire burned for hours inside the ship before it was visible outside. To repair all the damaged systems: electrical, engine room equipment, navigation, unloading equipment, water lines, sewage lines, damaged steel. Just might be faster to build a new ship.

[Larry64]

I was just telling someone that they can’t even get inside the ship just yet! Also I mentioned that many agencies would have to board the ship and inspect it correct? For instance, the Coast Guard along with Reps from ASC and possibly the local firm that was doing the work on her would have to go aboard and look at the damages. Then wouldn’t any insurance firms have to go aboard and inspect it as well? I’m sorry if all this don’t make any sense it’s just that I told a friend that this is what I thought about. In cases where the Algosoo, Nicolet and others and Yes there have been others with conveyor belt fires, they all at some point came back later on but maybe they too weren’t damaged as severely as the St. Clair is. Although it wasn’t like the St. Clair, remember when the Alpena caught fire a few years ago and some were writing her off yet she survived and still with us but again, she probably wasn’t damaged as badly as the St. Clair is. It was just a thought though on my part!

I can comment to that. I'm a retired Fire Marshal. Large loss fires like this become a circus. You will have the owners and their insurance people, fire investigators, engineers and lawyers. The shipyard will have theirs. The Coast Guard will have their investigators and depending on Ohio laws, the local fire department will be there. All parities will need to be there together. One party can't disturb the site without the others there, or the other party can claim spoliation.

One of the easiest investigations I ever had became years of litigation. A cable installer for a major cable company drilled into the electrical service of a condo complex. BOOM, major fire. We took written statements from the installer and witnesses on scene. The fire department was satisfied, accidental electrical fire. But, we had to secure and keep the scene for all the other parties to get all their people together and coordinate the on site investigation. Basically we had to referee. It can become very nasty.

[Guest]

As one poster stated earlier it is way to early to speculate on the amount of damage or the future of this ship. That being said, there is no doubt that the damage is severe and it is possible that it could be considered a total constructive loss. Regardless, the damages are going to be in the millions and there, at first sight anyways, appears to be several factors that contributed to the severity of the fire not the least of which was reports of 3 out of 4 fire hydrants being unserviceable. This accident is likely to open up several years of legal litigation. In the mean time, ASC will face a significant shortfall in its available capacity. If they had plans to operate the St. Clair throughout the upcoming season this will mean a loss of cargo movement in the range of 1.2-1.5 million tons. Some of this can be made up by having other fleet units make extra trips, but in the end will likely result in some of this cargo moving on vessels from other fleets. This accident brings two things to light in the US fleet. First, there is really no available excess capacity in the US fleet (although this is going to change as coal cuts continue in the upcoming years). Second, this is one of the primary reasons that there are still a few US flagged ships still sitting in long term layups, of which ASC has none. Although these ships would require a significant amount of work to get running, they do provide a good foundation upon which to regain some lost capacity.

In addition to the fire damage, the St. Clair must have suffered a significant amount of water damage during the past two days. This water has to be going somewhere, with much of it likely ending up in the machinery spaces. This is further compounded by this happening during freezing weather.

Just a few observations.

[Guest]

Simple fix, cut off the stern, make a notch and use the insurance to build a new tug- a sister to Presque Ile !

[Marc]

Although ASC is no stranger to catastrophes, this one could turn out to be their worst to date. Just disposing of the water that is being pumped into the ship will be a huge undertaking. Its not like the Coast Guard is going to let them pump it over the side. There will also be other environmental concerns such as asbestos. The environmental concerns alone could easily be in the 10s of millions of dollars.

[Guest]

Those are all the 16 cylinder of the 645E. ASC uses the 3,600 horsepower 20 cylinder model, which fell out of favor on US railroads many years ago.

I suspect the number of non-repowered SD45's and SD45-2's (And Tunnel Motor derivatives) are probably down to under 20 today in the United States, and most of those are in museums. Only three SD45-2's with their 20 cylinder 645 left in Class 1 service today for instance. And there's one F45 that survives intact and six FP45's, but they're also in preservation.

Unless a rebuilder or perhaps BNSF has some old 20-645 blocks in storage that were pulled back when significant numbers of these were rebuilt with 16-645E's, it's going to be the marine industry in the US that would be their best bet or seeing if there's any blocks from DDM45's down in Brazil now that they've been supplanted recently by modern power (Basically a narrow gauge EMD SD45 on four axle trucks).

Or alternatively if the extra 50 rpm's isn't an issue for the reduction gear, going with the F block which can run at 3,600 horsepower in its 16 cylinder configuration. CSX in recent weeks just dumped dozens of locomotives powered by these.

[Guest]

I wouldn't be so sure that those 20-645's are shot. I bet the major issues in her engine room would be with the electrical system.

And if they are shot, they're easily enough replaced. Not so sure about the availability of used 20-645's today now that they're virtually extinct on US railways, but even if used blocks aren't available, there's always 16 cylinder EMD's. .

Plenty of re-builders are out there (Hatch and Kirk comes to mind) and most short lines are still using GP/SD40's and 38's. When the McCarthy sank in lay up a while back they got them back up and running.

[Denny]

I was just telling someone that they can’t even get inside the ship just yet! Also I mentioned that many agencies would have to board the ship and inspect it correct? For instance, the Coast Guard along with Reps from ASC and possibly the local firm that was doing the work on her would have to go aboard and look at the damages. Then wouldn’t any insurance firms have to go aboard and inspect it as well? I’m sorry if all this don’t make any sense it’s just that I told a friend that this is what I thought about. In cases where the Algosoo, Nicolet and others and Yes there have been others with conveyor belt fires, they all at some point came back later on but maybe they too weren’t damaged as severely as the St. Clair is. Although it wasn’t like the St. Clair, remember when the Alpena caught fire a few years ago and some were writing her off yet she survived and still with us but again, she probably wasn’t damaged as badly as the St. Clair is. It was just a thought though on my part!

[Guest]

I wouldn't be so sure that those 20-645's are shot. I bet the major issues in her engine room would be with the electrical system.

And if they are shot, they're easily enough replaced. Not so sure about the availability of used 20-645's today now that they're virtually extinct on US railways, but even if used blocks aren't available, there's always 16 cylinder EMD's.

Buy three of those CSX SD50's that just were disposed of, overhaul their 16-645F3B's, and you're all set to go with three "new" 3,600 hp EMD 645's. The real expense is in the shipyard work to have them installed rather than the cost of the replacement engines and having them overhauled.

[Guest]

I seriously doubt any of the competitors would be willing to lease any vessels to ASC. They will just run the other boats as hard as they can and broker whatever tonnage they can’t handle. None of the inactive vessels are a viable option at this time. Remember, they did not own the Buffalo and the Cornelius had a rough life before they put her to the wall for the last time. It was plagued with problems from day one. I sailed her the first two years of her life.. not a well built ship.

[Bill]

An interesting thing I read in the Toledo Blade was the first sign of fire was flames and smoke coming from the funnel, sounds like the fire started deep within the hull. That doesn’t sound good.

[Guest]

It is way too early to be speculating whether or not she is a total loss.

You're right it is but people on Facebook are reporting that it is a total loss from what they are hearing.

People on Facebook are guessing.

For that matter, people speculating that the Sarah Spencer could be a replacement are not considering that the Spencer currently has no tug and also is Canadian flagged. There really isn't a good replacement for St. Clair.

She'll be rebuilt.

[toledoboatphotographer]

The American Valor is now a Canadian flagged vessel. With the Jones Act I doubt ASC would be able to bring the Valor back to U. S. registry. May be someone with experience with the Jones Act can clarify this.

[Guest]

The major damage that has been done is on the inside, what you can't see from shore or in aerial photos. Who knows how long the fire was burning before it became visible to people on-shore. The heat from the fire can cause changes to the steel's strength and weaken it. Based on the past history of self-unloaders that had fires in their conveyor systems (i.e., Nicolet and Algosoo) during winter layup, I would expect millions of dollars in damages and months of reconstruction.

[Denny]

In responding to a few other posts from readers I would like to add and update my post but please folks I don't want to create any type of chaos over my comments and questions. I just want to try and make it simple. First, IF the St. Clair can be repaired and fixed then what shipyards are likely to do the work? Right now I see only two and they are Erie and Sturgeon Bay as they would be the only ones with a drydock large enough to handle her due to the size of the ship. I don't know if Toledo or Fraser in Superior is big enough to handle her size at 770 X 92? Second, if she is declared a loss then if they decide to scrap her then where would this work then be done? I suppose the only two options there would be either at Toledo itself or Port Colborne at IMS Yard. It has also been said as well to possible replacement vessels currently in lay up as maybe a replacement. I can only see the Anderson as being one but also I believe she needs a 5-year done first and wasn't it said once she needs lots of internal steel work done on her? Some of the others mentioned were American Valor, Ryerson, Manistee along with the McKee Sons, Sarah Spencer and Sherwin. All of these would I think need a 5-year if I'm correct? Also, some of them need lots of work done on the insides. I can't see the Ryerson or Sherwin because both lack self-unloading gear. The American Valor was sold in 2017 to Algoma so I don't think it could be used since it's Canadian now? Don't mean to ramble on just adding my comments I hope in a nice and polite way here and that's all. Thank You.

[Andrew]

For my two cents: The way it looks now, the St. Clair will burn for 2 more days, at least that's what the Fire Department thinks is a real possibility. I'm also guessing that most of that burning will take place at the bottom of the cargo holds with the conveyors, and also in the engine room. While a self-unloader belt system can be replaced, as can a cabin, we're talking two important points: a completely destroyed engine, and, worse, hot steel temperatures and ice cold water. With the fire blazing near or below the waterline, that's going to really mess with her structural integrity and bulkheads. Warping and brittle steel is going to be a really serious problem, and I really doubt that she'll be considered seaworthy after this event, at least in the stern block area. Even if you just had a lost engine, barging her isn't really an option because there isn't a tug on the Great Lakes that could push her- her 56' depth would make that really hard (Presque Isle is only 46' deep for a comparison), and I've heard it said more than once that the one CCP on the St. Clair and Roger Blough made them really hard to control. Imagine sticking a tug with 2/3 the HP on her stern and you'd have some serious problems. But again, the issue with her hull integrity is the biggest problem. In my book, I find it hard to imagine that the USCG will find her seaworthy (and for good reason). At best, I see her out for at least a year, while more realistically, I see her in Port Colborne before the end of the year. Which brings us to the question of ASC. What happened with the four going to Algoma is done; so 'what if' scenarios aren't going to fix the problem. The problem is that ASC had a contract and planned to run all their ships from the starting gun this year. How they handle this is going to be interesting. I see 3 possible scenarios: 1. They work their ships harder over the course of the year to make up tonnage, which is probably the most likely thing. 2. They cut their losses and parse out their contract to other carriers (which could, inadvertently, put the Anderson, Sherwin, or ELR back in service, or all three), or, the most interesting speculation, 3. They pick up a ship to do the St. Clair's work. Most likely candidates would be the American Valor, which they could get off Algoma for virtually scrap value. Or, they could lease one of the aforesaid vessels in layup- Anderson or ELR. If there's a Hullett in Indy, Ryerson could be a real possibility. As far as some of the other names thrown around, they are all potential candidates too. I see ASC going for a bigger vessel that will last them a little longer, though, and I don't see them going for the smaller barges McKee Sons or Sarah Spencer. Manistee needs a lot of hull work. I think reasonably speaking, it's between the Ryerson, Anderson, and Valor. The Sherwin would be too long of a project, and likely if ASC wants to invest that sort of money, they'd lease a ship for a couple years and build a new laker, which, I guess, is also a possibility. They likely will want to see how this season goes tonnage wise. All I know for sure though is that it is going to be an interesting conversation in Williamsville, NY tomorrow at ASC's corporate. Really hate to see a fleet have to go through this. Very sad situation.

[guest7]

Just wondering, will this be the end of the St. Clair? The damage looks extensive enough.

Time will tell, but I doubt its the end of the St. Clair. Other ships have had major fires and been rebuilt. And there is always the possibility of turning it into an articulated barge IF there was major damage to the engines and engine room. Or building a new, powered stern. I have yet to see any photos that show any evidence of major hull damage. Just some paint burnt off the stern.

[toledoboatphotographer]

7 pm update. The fire crews on scene report the fire is under control however they state it will still take them a full 2 days yet to extinguish this fire. The rubber belts have melted inside the vessel making it difficult to extinguish the fire.

[Tristin Woolf]

I don’t think that one could say that ASC directly regrets selling Buffalo and Adam E. Cornelius due to this incident. Maybe they are now thinking “it would be nice” if they still have those two vessels, but there was no way to predict that a tragic incident like this would’ve happened. Unlucky timing for ASC? Sure, but there are several other options for them to exercise, even though they no longer own those two vessels. Nevertheless, it will be very interesting to see if (1) the St. Clair will be able to return to service eventually, (which I am inclined to believe is unlikely), and (2) what ASC will use as a replacement for the coming season.

I’d like to turn this to my own question, if I may. There are several vessels sitting in long term layup for several different companies. Some are obviously more available to sail than others. What are the possibilities of any of these vessels being brought back to service/leased, due to this incident?

-American Valor
-Arthur M. Anderson
-Edward L. Ryerson
-Manistee
-McKee Sons
-Sarah Spencer
-John Sherwin

I’m sure that some of these are near impossible replacements, but some of them must be viable options for lease? Perhaps another vessel already in service could be leased? Any thoughts on this?

[Scott]

Just wondering, will this be the end of the St. Clair? The damage looks extensive enough.