Cliffs Victory vs Charles White

[Jon Paul]

I remember watching the Aquarama on the St Clair River as a kid and it just looked fast. The Cliffs Victory gave that same impression even at low speeds. I think it was the sleek lines of the hull and the narrower beam unlike the Triplets.
Some of the Republic guys had a little limerick about the C4's..."Short and stocky..all A** and no body".
The 50's and 60's were an interesting era unlike any other. The influx of conversions from salt water and ex navy ships gave us some of the most memorable boats in the US fleets to watch.

[Guest]

S.S. Aquarama listed speed was 22 mph or 19 knots

[guest12]

Anybody know how fast the Aquarama was, with its saltwater bow?

[clarkjol]

Jon Paul

The Patton did sail in 1974, Bill Edwards was the captain at fit out and John Abbot was the Chief. Later in 74 Bill Hogan took over as skipper. As good as 1973 was profitable for Cliffs, 1974 was pretty atrocious, in terms of profit. Good thing Cliffs SS was under the umbrella of CCIC. I do not have the number of trips the Cliffs fleet made by vessel in 1974.
The Girdler carried 811,000 tons, Patton 768,000 and the White 803,000 tons.
That just about covers the information I have on 1974.

[Guest]

I do not remember if these three had GE or Westinghouse turbines. GE turbines were easier to balance giving them an edge over Westinghouse. The steam pressure of the boilers, the condition of the reduction gears, how well the turbine is balanced all determines the top end speed. The Patton reduction gears were so bad (turbine not completely balanced) that when you opened her up, you could not write in the log book because she shook so bad.

[Jon Paul]

Was there a reason that the White was faster than the Patton or Girdler? Same hull, same engine, should have been comparable. But it seems like the White is always mentioned as the fastest.

Chief John Abbott who I sailed with on the White in '76 and had been on all 3 triplets told me that the White was the fastest of them all. I pressed him for his opinion why and he said that some power plants and boats just meshed that way and others didn't. It wasn't a huge difference more in the range of 1-1.5 mph.
Chief Abbott was the one responsible for taking the beautiful 3 chime steam whistle off the J E Upson when it went for scrap and putting it on the Patton.
As for boats being built on the same plan, that doesn't necessarily mean that they all have the same characteristics.
Rick Starke who was 1st mate on the White when I was there and had also been on the other 2 C4's told me the Patton couldn't load as much as the other 2. The Patton didn't have a bow thruster either. It was always the Patton that went to the wall when all 3 triplets weren't needed to fulfill tonnage commitments. I believe the Patton was in layup for the '74 and '75 seasons at AmShip in S Chicago because I remember seeing it there when I was on the J R Sensibar and went to KCBX Rail to Water for a coal load.

[Guest]

Difference was the engineers on the White. Plus spent more time on the White compared to the other two. The one you were on was always the fastest.
LOL.

[Ray]

Was there a reason that the White was faster than the Patton or Girdler? Same hull, same engine, should have been comparable. But it seems like the White is always mentioned as the fastest.

[Guest]

I sailed the Mckeeson when she was still a full ship. Consistently ran 20 mph but that was before the fuel crisis drove up prices and sent her to the wall. Very smooth turbine with little vibration. Sad to see her waste away now.

[Jon Paul]

[quote="Guest"]When I was on the White heading northbound on Lake Michigan. We had competition for the dock at Escanaba. We were in light ballast with calm wind and seas. Topped out at 22+ mph. Almost water skiing speed. We drifted into a clear dock, far ahead of our competition.[/quote

We had to have been shipmates on the White. Email me @ greybeard.m@gmail.com
I have an idea who you might be, lol

[Jon Paul]

[quote="Darryl"]And those top speeds were right around 21

The White could achieve over 21mph in A+ ballast and all nozzles feeding the turbine. She could actually throw a rooster tail in optimal sea and wind conditions.
It obviously wasn't very fuel efficient to run like that and when I was aboard we only opened her up like that on rare occasions, like trying to beat another boat to the dock in Esky.

[Guest]

When I was on the White heading northbound on Lake Michigan. We had competition for the dock at Escanaba. We were in light ballast with calm wind and seas. Topped out at 22+ mph. Almost water skiing speed. We drifted into a clear dock, far ahead of our competition.

[Darryl]

And those top speeds were right around 21 mph?

[Guest John paul]

I was on the White in the 70's and I had several discussions with guys who had sailed on her since she had been in Republic colors.
I considered Capt Ray Long who had skippered both the White and the Victory after coming over to Cliffs a good authority on the subject of the legendary races.
The stories were consistent from him right down to former Republic/Wilson or former Victory mates and crew.
The 2 main races took place on open lake, Superior and Huron.
The Victory won the race when both were loaded ,the White won 2 races when both were light and in ballast.
I never heard any thing about a governor being involved. The power output of the steam turbines was dictated by how many nozzles were opened to allow steam input to the turbines and both ships had the same basic nozzle configuration.
Chief John Abbott who had been CE on all 3 triplets believed the Victory was faster loaded due to its narrower beam and flared bow. Both Chief Abbott and Capt Long had indicated the Victory won by a small margin when loaded but that the White had easily beat the Victory in both races in ballast.

[Guest]

I was third mate on the White back in the late 70’s. They were still talking about this race prior to my time on the White. Speed limits were posted on the Ste Claire River from the results of this race. The wakes of both vessels watered lawns in low areas of the river.

[bckid2002]

I once read a story on this race where the White won, but the Cliffs Victory ran the lake faster in subsequent runs. Apparently the Cliffs Victory had some sort of governors installed on it to save fuel which cost it the race. Cannot anyone elaborate or direct me to the story on this race ? Thank You