Valor And Manistee

Discussion board focusing on Great Lakes Shipping Question & Answer. From beginner to expert all posts are welcome.
Jon Paul
Posts: 888
Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Jon Paul »

The Victory/Maumee, Manitoulin and Michipicotin have delivered pellets there with the Victory being on a pretty steady run from Superior
Guest

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Guest »

guest wrote: October 6, 2022, 11:41 pm yes but the end is near for lower lakes hauling ore pellets from michigan to sault, ontario. the. new EAF furnaces will primarily be using scrap. but be a good thing for PMS, mckeil or purvis but not so good for LLT
That is likely to result in quite a shake up in the LLT fleet! Would not be surprised to see a few more to head for the scrappers.
Guest

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Guest »

Haven't really followed who was carrying ore (and coal/coke) to that mill.

What boats served that trade?
guest

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by guest »

yes but the end is near for lower lakes hauling ore pellets from michigan to sault, ontario. the. new EAF furnaces will primarily be using scrap. but be a good thing for PMS, mckeil or purvis but not so good for LLT
Jared
Posts: 798
Joined: December 6, 2014, 4:51 pm

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Jared »

Guest wrote: October 2, 2022, 5:34 pm This is the first time i have heard about water in the holds and elsewhere in the Sherwin how deep is the water in the holds and are there any pictures?

Thanks in advance.
Yes, you can Google image "John Sherwin freighter inside" and follow some pictures of an urban explorer who climbed the dockline onto her.

The cargo hold had big puddles of water maybe an inch or 2 deep. You can see some daylight down into the hold which means the hatches are not sealed.
GuestfromEU
Posts: 359
Joined: December 7, 2014, 10:33 am

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by GuestfromEU »

Algoma acquired the Valor and Victory as a package deal for the Buffalo and Compass. The latter two were obtained to fill the gap between the newbuilds from Croatia - Algoma never had plans to refurbish and trade the two steamships. They were part of the deal - to get the two hulls Algoma wanted, they had to take the two steamships. The Victory was able to clear the Seaway for overseas recycling, but the Valor is more limited, thus a sale to LLT may have been more financially attractive than recycling at Port Colborne.

Now that the Croatian newbuilds are delivered with a third on the way, the Compass and Buffalo are not long for service life. They are less efficient than the new ships, consuming more expensive MGO only, and aged ships in general. Despite possibly being in better condition due to previous service with ASC, they are not new and should not be considered economically competitive with new ships.

Layup costs are primarily the berthage, security, and insurance. As noted about the desire to layup aircraft in the desert, ships are also commonly laid up in Malaysia, outside the typhoon belt and in stable, constant weather conditions. Industrial dehumidifiers are often placed on deck to keep the accommodations and machinery spaces at lower humidity levels to prevent damage.
Geest

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Geest »

I believe Rand is still "kicking the tires" on the Valo but I doubt much will come of it now that its under the Canadian Flag. Newbuild or even existing foreign hulls can be obtained for far cheaper under the Canadian registry than the costs to bring the Valo back into trading form. Then there's always the question of where and how would it be used in their fleet. She's a big boat and likely to be a bit oversized for their stone trades but I could see her running that Algoma lake Superior trade the Michipicoten was running until recently.
Guest

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Guest »

This is the first time i have heard about water in the holds and elsewhere in the Sherwin how deep is the water in the holds and are there any pictures?

Thanks in advance.
Jared
Posts: 798
Joined: December 6, 2014, 4:51 pm

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Jared »

My mistake, I meant to say that the Valor had been bought by Lower Lakes, not Algoma. With the destruction of the Blough and St. Clair, there's a "potential" of a picked up route, tonnage, cargo, etc that could possibly benefit Interlake at the cost of GLF and Rand. Considering Rand has been financially unstable for 15 years and GLF is up for sale. Interlake and Algoma are the only Fleets that have expanded or renewed.

If a footer(s) is a total loss, the Sherwin will be the candidate to replace the loss tonnage to a certain extent. Her conversion to a Self unloader will take away about 1/6 of her cargo capacity which isn't insignificant.

It takes only 4-8 months to scrap a boat. Interlake could have ditched the Sherwin at any time in the last 14 years after the 2008 recession.
Guest

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Guest »

Algoma purchased four vessels. The Buffalo, the Adam E. Cornelius, the American Valor and the American Victory. The Fortitude as said was still owned by ASC when sold for scrap.

What Algoma did or didn't do is irrelevant in regards to the Valor in 2022 since they sold her to Lower Lakes several years ago. It's Lower Lakes that has been considering repowering her and returning her to service.

And Interlake didn't decide that it "was unfeasible to convert the Sherwin". They simply decided that the Sherwin wasn't ideally suited for the trades that they were envisioning going after with their fleet expansion that resulted in the Mark W. Barker joining the fleet earlier this season.
Guest

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote: October 2, 2022, 2:01 pm
Jared wrote: October 2, 2022, 11:42 am It costs the companies very little overall. The dockage is free as it is owned outright for both the Valor and Sherwin.

The Sherwin has lasted in layup because she's basically a "new" hull and can be refurbished cheaply as she's completely empty of engines and equipment. Even the pilothouse is stripped allowing up to date equipment to be installed if they chose to do so. However, corrosion is beginning to cause problems as trespassers have boarded and recorded the ship and there's water in her holds and cabins. Without at least a coating of paint every decade, her steel is being exposed to the elements. If the Roger Blough is scrapped, then there might be a future for the Sherwin but far more likely than not, she will be scrapped.

As for the Valor, Algoma got it for a song and might have thought to add it to their working fleet for future capacities or Jones Act compliment vessels for an American subsidiary. Her hull is definitely used but has life left in it. The fact that the Burton went to scrap under the same owners, probably means the Valor will most likely be scrapped also as the Chinese built boats are still cheaper than to repower and refurbish a hull that is already 60+ years old.
I believe the American Fortitude (Courtney Burton) was still owned by ASC when it was originally sold for scrap, with the American Victory, American Valor, and Buffalo being sold to Algoma. Renamed Valo and widely expected to be sold for scrap the former American Valor is, I believe, owned by Rand Logistics. With Rand acquiring the ASC fleet, however, some doubt could be raised as to what future the Valo has under the Canadian flag. It is currently the longest ship confined to operating on the Great Lakes under the Canadian flag. There was some speculation at the time that the American Fortitude went to scrap the sale was done to prevent the ship from coming under GRN ownership, how much truth there is to that and how much is rumor is only known by the executives of the two firms at the time.
I apologize as I forgot about the Adam E. Cornelius (Algoma Compass) being sold at the same time to Algoma.
Guest

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Guest »

Jared wrote: October 2, 2022, 11:42 am It costs the companies very little overall. The dockage is free as it is owned outright for both the Valor and Sherwin.

The Sherwin has lasted in layup because she's basically a "new" hull and can be refurbished cheaply as she's completely empty of engines and equipment. Even the pilothouse is stripped allowing up to date equipment to be installed if they chose to do so. However, corrosion is beginning to cause problems as trespassers have boarded and recorded the ship and there's water in her holds and cabins. Without at least a coating of paint every decade, her steel is being exposed to the elements. If the Roger Blough is scrapped, then there might be a future for the Sherwin but far more likely than not, she will be scrapped.

As for the Valor, Algoma got it for a song and might have thought to add it to their working fleet for future capacities or Jones Act compliment vessels for an American subsidiary. Her hull is definitely used but has life left in it. The fact that the Burton went to scrap under the same owners, probably means the Valor will most likely be scrapped also as the Chinese built boats are still cheaper than to repower and refurbish a hull that is already 60+ years old.
As for the Sherwin, if there is not some type of maintenance and inspection program being followed by Interlake the ship will begin to degrade. It is a simple fact that when something sits unused whether it be a ship, a house, an aircraft, or anything with a structure that is manmade nature will begin the process of reclaiming said object. While it is possible to place these types of properties in long-term storage, they do require periodic care to prevent the unavoidable encroachment of corrosion and deterioration. Left unchecked, this process will eventually reach a point at which it becomes cheaper to replace than to correct. This is why aircraft are often stored in dry conditions in the American southwest as the climate is more beneficial to long-term storage. With the Sherwin having now sat for over 40 years in a northern state climate it does not surprise me that it would have some standing water in its compartments. Having had the opportunity to examine aircraft that have been left in the elements, it is often amazing how quickly nature begins reclaiming anything left undisturbed for a prolonged period. It is also a poor state of affairs that apparently trespassers have easy access to the Sherwin but I seem to recall that the Ryerson has also been visited by trespassers in its layup berth.

The bottom line is Interlake apparently has a reason to hold on to the John Sherwin and it was noted when the company decided to contract the construction of the Mark W. Barker a couple of years back it did so only after determining that it was unfeasible to convert the Sherwin.
Guest

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Guest »

Jared wrote: October 2, 2022, 11:42 am It costs the companies very little overall. The dockage is free as it is owned outright for both the Valor and Sherwin.

The Sherwin has lasted in layup because she's basically a "new" hull and can be refurbished cheaply as she's completely empty of engines and equipment. Even the pilothouse is stripped allowing up to date equipment to be installed if they chose to do so. However, corrosion is beginning to cause problems as trespassers have boarded and recorded the ship and there's water in her holds and cabins. Without at least a coating of paint every decade, her steel is being exposed to the elements. If the Roger Blough is scrapped, then there might be a future for the Sherwin but far more likely than not, she will be scrapped.

As for the Valor, Algoma got it for a song and might have thought to add it to their working fleet for future capacities or Jones Act compliment vessels for an American subsidiary. Her hull is definitely used but has life left in it. The fact that the Burton went to scrap under the same owners, probably means the Valor will most likely be scrapped also as the Chinese built boats are still cheaper than to repower and refurbish a hull that is already 60+ years old.
I believe the American Fortitude (Courtney Burton) was still owned by ASC when it was originally sold for scrap, with the American Victory, American Valor, and Buffalo being sold to Algoma. Renamed Valo and widely expected to be sold for scrap the former American Valor is, I believe, owned by Rand Logistics. With Rand acquiring the ASC fleet, however, some doubt could be raised as to what future the Valo has under the Canadian flag. It is currently the longest ship confined to operating on the Great Lakes under the Canadian flag. There was some speculation at the time that the American Fortitude went to scrap the sale was done to prevent the ship from coming under GRN ownership, how much truth there is to that and how much is rumor is only known by the executives of the two firms at the time.
JMarx

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by JMarx »

How much wear does Valor have vs the other AAA's still in service? (Valor is an AAA class ship correct?)
Jared
Posts: 798
Joined: December 6, 2014, 4:51 pm

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Jared »

It costs the companies very little overall. The dockage is free as it is owned outright for both the Valor and Sherwin.

The Sherwin has lasted in layup because she's basically a "new" hull and can be refurbished cheaply as she's completely empty of engines and equipment. Even the pilothouse is stripped allowing up to date equipment to be installed if they chose to do so. However, corrosion is beginning to cause problems as trespassers have boarded and recorded the ship and there's water in her holds and cabins. Without at least a coating of paint every decade, her steel is being exposed to the elements. If the Roger Blough is scrapped, then there might be a future for the Sherwin but far more likely than not, she will be scrapped.

As for the Valor, Algoma got it for a song and might have thought to add it to their working fleet for future capacities or Jones Act compliment vessels for an American subsidiary. Her hull is definitely used but has life left in it. The fact that the Burton went to scrap under the same owners, probably means the Valor will most likely be scrapped also as the Chinese built boats are still cheaper than to repower and refurbish a hull that is already 60+ years old.
Shipwatcher1
Posts: 489
Joined: April 19, 2011, 4:01 pm

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Shipwatcher1 »

Guest wrote: October 2, 2022, 7:45 am Valor has been in layup limbo for years how much does this cost the shipping companies every year?

Should they not have just scrapped this ship long ago? Same situation with the Sherwin.
The Sherwin is located at a dock which is also owned by Interlake, so since 2009 she had had no docking fees. Obviously others pay fees. There is clearly some benefit seen by the owners of keeping these boats at the wall so long, even if we don't see it
Guest

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Guest »

Valor has been in layup limbo for years how much does this cost the shipping companies every year?

Should they not have just scrapped this ship long ago? Same situation with the Sherwin.
Jared
Posts: 798
Joined: December 6, 2014, 4:51 pm

Re: Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Jared »

Manistee was towed away for scrap in the spring. Valor is 40/60 of being repowered or scrapped.
Guest

Valor And Manistee

Unread post by Guest »

Has the Valor been moved is she still tied up next to the Manistee?

Any updates on the future of these two ships?

Thank you in advance.
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