Ryerson

Discussion board focusing on Great Lakes Shipping Question & Answer. From beginner to expert all posts are welcome.
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

Hmmmm….. why would the video be removed? Call me a skeptic but I’ll believe it when it’s underway to her first loading port. Too many moving parts to this story🤷🏼‍♂️
Guest

Re: Ryerson

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Earlier today, an individual posted a video on YouTube of a tour onboard the Ryerson that was given by the supposed captain. The video has since been taken down, but the captain confirmed that the Ryerson will be going into dry dock for a 5 year survey once the Mariner departs. Captain didn't reveal much other information in the video, but mentioned that the deck/pilothouse would be repainted by the crew once it is underway.
Mn bob

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Mn bob »

Couldn’t the blough be used to haul the hbi briquettes? She has the larger hatch covers as well doesn’t she? They can’t unload the briquettes with a self unloader?
Jon Paul
Posts: 888
Joined: December 14, 2017, 8:37 pm

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Jon Paul »

Guest wrote: January 27, 2023, 11:19 pm DRI (B) as another poster said is nasty stuff. It can react with water and air to produce hydrogen and heat. It can then self combust. Oxygen in enclosed spaces can be depleted.

You can read all the regulations that come with shipping DRI (B): https://cargohandbook.com/Direct_Reduced_Iron_(DRI)

HBI is DRI (A).
Very informative. What are the DR pellets specially made and delivered to Ironville from Silver Bay and Superior by VTB? They don't seem to have any issues with volatility on those pellets
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

Why are HBI briquettes rectangular as opposed to being square, like a charcoal briquette?
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

DRI (B) as another poster said is nasty stuff. It can react with water and air to produce hydrogen and heat. It can then self combust. Oxygen in enclosed spaces can be depleted.

You can read all the regulations that come with shipping DRI (B): https://cargohandbook.com/Direct_Reduced_Iron_(DRI)

HBI is DRI (A).
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

HBI is already 90-94% iron. It's similar to pig iron so it can't be put in a rock crusher to make it smaller.

https://www.midrex.com/tech-article/hot ... t-quality/
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote: January 27, 2023, 11:35 am
Guest wrote: January 25, 2023, 4:14 pm IMO Seeing that she has larger hatches and no slopes she would be ideal to load those briquettes. Having an alternative means to move HBI other than by rail, will make the railroads think twice about the rates they charge CLIFFS. CLIFFS could use this boat to move the product to mills that have water access which is everything but Middletown. They'll also be able to deliver to Algoma Steel at the SOO.

She'll burn tonnes of fuel being a steamer and will take awhile to unload via crane. So the railroads must be charging a fortune now if Cliffs is considering it.

I would think using barges and tugs would be cheaper but maybe not.
Does anyone know why those HBI briquettes couldn't be put in a rock crusher and reduced to a size that current belt systems could handle? I've seen some rocks that were fairly decent sized unleaded with current boats. The iron is still there if the biscuit was broken in half or thirds, no?
Crushing it into smaller pieces defeats the purpose of why it was briquetted in the first place. HBI was developed to greatly increase the safety of hauling DRI. DRI is nasty stuff and if conditions are right a very dangerous cargo. HBI is much more stable and greatly reduces the chances of the cargo going "BOOOOOM"
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

Good info Mr. Link. While it’s true the legal max. Weight in Michigan is 164,000, there are very few trucks that are allowed that weight. They are very old MPSC regulated truck firms grandfathered in under an old law permitting 13 axles. I guess 2-300 or less. Max axles today are 11. Michigan is an axle state. Number of axles determines your gross allowable weight. Over 90% of trucks using Michigan roads fall under normal 5 axle configurations which on interstate and US designated highways is 80,000 gross weight. Most Michigan only state routes allow this weight designation also. However, some revert to the old limit of 73,280 for 5 axle units. If a spread axle trailer is used it’s still 80,000 on these roads. It’s a complicated messy formula. An operator may be under his allowable gross weight but still incurr high fines for “ over axle “ weights. Ohio is even more of a mess😂. In the late 80s early 90s the state concocted a “ barely legal” system of over weight permit system to allow trucks hauling 1 or 2 steel coils to travel certain Ohio routes in and out of MI. This caused all kinds of legal challenges but the plan still exists today. Over the years it was so complicated in permit pricing and rules that one day you were legal and the next illegal🤦‍♂️.All of this was brought about by the Ohio steel mills complaining they had a cost disadvantage comparing transportation from the Indiana Lake Michigan Mills due to Indiana allowing a limit of 132,000 from example Gary, to the Michigan state line via permit routes. Today Ohio is mostly stable in the permit system and now most roads are permittable to higher weights for steel loads of various configurations. For practical purposes, the max weight of these loads is 118-120,000 depending on axle # and again configurations. The 3 counties you spoke of are the only ones allowing Michigan “ trains” of 11 axles. This is mostly to serve the North Star blue scope mini mill in delta to Michigan state line and into Toledo processors. I’m not sure what Ohio allows on this routing for max weight. City of Toledo allows 11 axle units in and out of mich. with up to 156.000 in also Non divisible loads such as in bulk agricultural, waste, recycling, chemical ,industrial loads . This is a very small zone of operation. You must have the Ohio state permit plus city of Toledo permit. Indiana jumped on this steel hauling permit bandwagon a few years back and opened up practically the whole state road system to overweight steel hauling. Ridiculous weights were allowed with permits. Mittal steel used its massive $ influence to get this program moving. It’s now been mostly cut back to a few designated routes and lower allowed higher permit load limits. Still, hundreds of permit steel loads today move about every day between Indiana and Ohio plus Indiana and mich. under the weight laws in effect for many years. Ohio sees hundreds of intrastate permit loads moved every day within Ohio borders. It’s really a mess designed to make Ohio steel mills and processors more competitive with the more open Indiana - mich. routes. Just shows the political clout of steel companies and auto companies on state politicians as these are the main beneficiaries of these Legal😂 overweight steel hauling and bulk hauling programs in Ohio and Indiana. As for Michigan, the max realistic weight is around 150- 151,000 lbs. depending on truck n trailer combos with most limited to about 148,000 due to axle weight limits. It’s really a learned skill to get your truck loaded right at those higher limits. There’s much more but hope this gives a good overview of what you posted as for Ohio higher weight limits. I didn’t even touch on the Ohio and Indiana toll road weight schemes😂.
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote: January 25, 2023, 4:14 pm IMO Seeing that she has larger hatches and no slopes she would be ideal to load those briquettes. Having an alternative means to move HBI other than by rail, will make the railroads think twice about the rates they charge CLIFFS. CLIFFS could use this boat to move the product to mills that have water access which is everything but Middletown. They'll also be able to deliver to Algoma Steel at the SOO.

She'll burn tonnes of fuel being a steamer and will take awhile to unload via crane. So the railroads must be charging a fortune now if Cliffs is considering it.

I would think using barges and tugs would be cheaper but maybe not.
Does anyone know why those HBI briquettes couldn't be put in a rock crusher and reduced to a size that current belt systems could handle? I've seen some rocks that were fairly decent sized unleaded with current boats. The iron is still there if the biscuit was broken in half or thirds, no?
Mr Link
Posts: 1198
Joined: December 6, 2014, 3:43 pm

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Mr Link »

Guest wrote: January 24, 2023, 4:46 pmHauling HBI by truck has to be pretty expensive considering a vehicle can only haul at most around 60,000 pounds, or 30 tons, of cargo.
As an aside, basically double that for trucks headed to Michigan. Lucas County and two other counties in Ohio allow Michigan -legal trucks to use specific routes. Michigan allows 164,000 lbs gross although the Ohio exemptions seem to only allow 154,000 lbs gross. But either of these two numbers could make trucking from Toledo to the three active steel mills in Michigan cost effective.
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote: January 24, 2023, 4:46 pm I personally witnessed HBI being shipped by rail n truck to steel dynamics Indiana facilities when was still hauling steel until retiring this past oct.
Hauling HBI by truck has to be pretty expensive considering a vehicle can only haul at most around 60,000 pounds, or 30 tons, of cargo. But then again, there may not be adequate rail capacity for all of this cargo.

In regards to loading and unloading HBI from vessels from looking around online I have found pictures of it being loaded and unloaded by cranes commonly seen on many ocean vessels. If this is in fact the best current way of doing this, perhaps the lakes will see a return of crane vessels. I would assume in the long term that new ways will be developed to handle these cargoes that will be much more efficient. Regardless, HBI appears to be somewhat incompatible with self-unloading vessels.
Guest

Re: Ryerson

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The weight of the HBI briquette is causing a lot of consternation among the group. We used to load sugar stone aka "elephant nuts" at calcite on the South dock I believe. Those were big rocks going into the Taylor, Calcite 2nd, and Sloan cargo holds. Those boats did it for many many years. There are assumed expenses in vessel operations. Tank tops and cargo holds are ongoing maintenance expenses planned for. I did sail briefly on the ELR in 91'. Just an amazing boat and unloading at Indiana Harbor and Burns Harbor was fascinating. Lowering bulldozers in near the end of the unload and the sweepers to clean up pellets. Wish I had more pictures. Clamshell buckets or large magnets would unload with ease. She will never be a museum ship, and hopefully she has life left in her to sail more seasons again. Thanks!
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

Since a few posters have mentioned railroading the HBI, how would such a regular movement of HBI (via gondola cars?) reach Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario? You can't railroad it over the Straits of Mackinaw, so the only two realistic ways are through Port Huron into Ontario, London Subdivision, Oakville Subdivision past Toronto, Bala Subdivision, then the Soo Subdivision. The other is around Chicago, up through Wisconsin then into Upper Michigan and then across the International Bridge into Soo, ON.

It seems to be a rather round about way to deliver HBI to the Soo. But then dropping HBI into the cargoholds of the ELR from a height is going to cause a lot of wear to the tank tops, too.
Guest

Re: Ryerson

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Guest wrote: January 24, 2023, 9:10 pm
Guest wrote: January 24, 2023, 7:27 pm This is likely just as speculative as the other rumors but down here in the Chicago area heard some rumors she may make shuttle runs from Quebec with transloaded cement from overseas into Chicago and reload scrap from the new shredding facility located where the old LTV mill was out the seaway to Quebec to transload for overseas. Deal is running her till no longer feasible and then she would be towed over with the last load out for scrap. I'm sure there's about as much to it as the other rumors but that is what we have heard down here.
They aren't dumping money in her for that.
I agree! The cost of dry docking, refitting, crewing would likely only be considered if there were contracts to keep her active for the length of the inspection (5 years, 6 with extension).
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

IMO Seeing that she has larger hatches and no slopes she would be ideal to load those briquettes. Having an alternative means to move HBI other than by rail, will make the railroads think twice about the rates they charge CLIFFS. CLIFFS could use this boat to move the product to mills that have water access which is everything but Middletown. They'll also be able to deliver to Algoma Steel at the SOO.

She'll burn tonnes of fuel being a steamer and will take awhile to unload via crane. So the railroads must be charging a fortune now if Cliffs is considering it.

I would think using barges and tugs would be cheaper but maybe not.
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote: January 24, 2023, 7:55 pm Lol... that’s a good one but I guess as feasible as any other scuttlebutt on here. Where did you hear that? I’m still waiting for the new ( overdue) Oiler to come aboard and steam raised in the donkey boiler. If that’s happened or happening please accept my apologies but my friend in Superior says seems dark n just sitting there
There’s an engineer I follow on social media who just posted a picture at the Ryerson, so I’d speculate at least some kind of work going on.
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote: January 24, 2023, 7:27 pm This is likely just as speculative as the other rumors but down here in the Chicago area heard some rumors she may make shuttle runs from Quebec with transloaded cement from overseas into Chicago and reload scrap from the new shredding facility located where the old LTV mill was out the seaway to Quebec to transload for overseas. Deal is running her till no longer feasible and then she would be towed over with the last load out for scrap. I'm sure there's about as much to it as the other rumors but that is what we have heard down here.
They aren't dumping money in her for that.
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

Doesn't the original family still own her? Would they not have the final say?
Guest

Re: Ryerson

Unread post by Guest »

Lol... that’s a good one but I guess as feasible as any other scuttlebutt on here. Where did you hear that? I’m still waiting for the new ( overdue) Oiler to come aboard and steam raised in the donkey boiler. If that’s happened or happening please accept my apologies but my friend in Superior says seems dark n just sitting there
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