Sturgeon Bay Activity

Discussion board focusing on Great Lakes Shipping Question & Answer. From beginner to expert all posts are welcome.
Guest_SB

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Guest_SB »

It looks like there are some tarps around the Erie Trader, could be painting about to happen.

Last Winter wasn't a dry dock year for the tug/barge, so it wouldn't make sense to paint.
Denny

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Denny »

Thanks all as this helps clear up both when the Indy undocked and when the Clyde S. and Erie Trader was then docked. Although it’s been said and mentioned here that the Clyde S. and Erie Trader are both to get new paint then, I would’ve thought by now they would’ve gotten it done. Thought I recall last year there was talk then of then getting new paint but it didn’t happen last year and season though. If they get the new paint, I would think then they would look really good for a while at least anyway.
Guest_SB

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Guest_SB »

Three pieces of information:

1. Indiana Harbor undocked Saturday March 4th
2. Tug Clyde S. VanEnkevort and barge Erie Trader docked Tuesday March 7th
3. I heard that after Great Lakes Towing bought out the Sarter fleet they more than doubled the rate, so bringing the Basic Towing tugs from Escanaba is far more cost effective.
c ships

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by c ships »

Sorry Saturday March 4th. the footer exits graving dock.
c ships

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by c ships »

Saturday 03-05-23 afternoon the footer exits the graving dock. On Sunday the gantry crane was setting blocks for the next boat. I left Sunday evening for home. I was wondering why those extra tugs were there from Escanaba michigan.
Denny

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Denny »

I'm a bit confused here as to when the Indiana Harbor was pulled out of the Graving Dock in Sturgeon Bay? It was reported and mentioned a while ago that it was pulled out by tugs on March 4 and was rafted alongside the Walter J. McCarthy Jr. then with the Cason J. Callaway being moved later on alongside and rafted to the Indiana Harbor that same day on March 4. There are also videos of the move showing all of this from someone on the You Tube Videos as well. However scrolling down this page, it is mentioned by Bob+ that on March 7 the Indiana Harbor was pulled out of the drydock then or else last week Thursday maybe? Again, I am lost and confused as far as when exactly the move took place officially. If anyone can help clear this up and provide the correct and exact information it would be appreciated. Also, did the Clyde S. VanEnkevort and Erie Trader enter the Graving Dock last week then as it was reported or was it a different date and day? Any information on these two movements is appreciated. Thanks.
Guest

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Guest »

If the company carries the insurance - https://www.lightshipmaritime.com/blog/ ... he-details

Types of Machinery Coverage

Vessel insurance policies can either use standard Marine Insurance Forms, be written by the Insurance Company (i.e. manuscripted) or a combination of both. Hull and Machinery policies are usually written on a ‘Named Peril‘ basis, meaning that certain events listed in the policy are what the insurance will pay for. Machinery coverage usually follows this but can sometimes have its own list of perils that pertain to coverage.

Generally, there are four different types of Machinery Coverage:

Full Machinery
F.P.A. Machinery (a.k.a. Limited Machinery Damage)
Actual Cash Value (ACV)
Separate Named Perils

Full Machinery
"The is the most complete coverage available to boat owners. This provides coverage to the engines and machinery within the Hull and Machinery Policy Form and usually also includes coverage for damage done by defective parts (i.e. latent defect coverage), negligence of the crew or owner, damage sustained during the normal operation of the vessel and while the vessel is being hauled in a graving dock, dry dock, etc.. These additional coverages are usually offered in a clause called the Inchmaree Clause, also found in the Hull and Machinery Policy Form.

Parts needed for repair are usually paid for by the insurance company on a Replacement Cost Basis, New for Old. This means that no matter how old the part is, if its damaged and needs to be repaired, a new one will be paid for by the insurance company.

Labor is also covered.

Usually, the Hull and Machinery deductible will only apply, unless there is a separate Machinery Deductible listed in the policy.
CSLFAN

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by CSLFAN »

I have never heard of "major engine casualty insurance". So if American Spirit has been running on 1 engine for quite a while insurance is going to cover the cost of repairs ? And how many engine casualties have there been in the last 5 years ?
Guest

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Guest »

True on the exterior paint. The key is if they are replacing steel in the bulkheads and slopes that have eroded or corroded? That IMO will determine the life of these boats. Absent a major engine casualty but that is usually covered by insurance.
Geest

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Geest »

Rand owns ASC, Lower Lakes and Grand River, so expect the same for all 3 fleets as far as painting and prettywork is concerned. They are certainly spending money on the ships during layup but its all on internal systems that keep the boats running, which is what the company and customers want. The reality is that a customer is going to want their cargo on the dock for the lowest price, and if it arrives on a boat that looks like a beat up sewage barge but runs well so be it. Im sure Grand River running two boats aground this season and ASC's Spirit limping around on one engine most of the year isn't helping the financial situation either for paint costs. Its the reality of the situation - unfortunate for the photographers but companies have to make profits.
Bob+

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Bob+ »

On Tuesday morning, the Indiana Harbor was towed out of the graving dock and rafted outboard of the McCarthy. The tug Clyde VanEnkvork was towed into he graving dock followed by the barge Erie Trader. The tugs used in his tow were the Kobasic tugs.
GuestfromEU
Posts: 359
Joined: December 7, 2014, 10:33 am

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by GuestfromEU »

An ocean trading ship docking in a foreign shipyard incurs the highest expense of special survey for hull painting. Coatings can cost USD 60-70,000 minimum. Assume 20% blasting area, two touch-up coats and one full coat, the cost of blasting and coating in labour may cost an additional $50,000 +/-. Those are costs at a yard in Europe, subtract 25% for blasting and coating costs in China. In the USA, coating material cost is roughly the same, but blasting and coating labour can cost $150,000 or more.

I do not believe ships on the Great Lakes apply anti-fouling coatings to the underwater hull portion, so material cost would be slightly less, but costs all-in are $250,000 minimum in the USA (I presume Canada as well, though I have little experience with Canadian yards). In summary, "painting" is not cheap and has many other factors involved besides only the cost of the coatings.

While others correctly stated the purpose of hull coatings are to protect and preserve the steel, this is less of a critical concern for ships trading exclusively in fresh water. Ocean ships are more subjected to proper blasting and coating each drydocking due to salt water and economic/efficiency concerns. Ships expected to be laid up or recycled often skip hull blasting and coating at the last drydocking, which is likely the case with ASC. There are different outlooks here and what is deemed a cost-for-value proposition, decisions made at top levels, with best investment for the company always in mind. Often those decisions are communicated down the chain without full explanations so it is a guessing game, with the public least informed. What is "best investment"? That varies from company to company, current economic climate, and countless other variables.
Denny

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Denny »

While I would have to check out some of my past photos both 35mm and Digitals, it seems that after the McCarthy hit an object one year while it was in lay-up at a Hallet Dock in Duluth is when I started to notice that she wasn't getting much paint on her then. If I am correct, I believe that it was during their Winter Lay-Up of 2007/08 when the McCarthy did something to its bottom to where the engine room flooded and they settled in about 20 feet or so of water then? It created a major mess for the Wally Mac to the point to where their fit-out was delayed that Spring until sometime in early May. I know as I saw them on their first trip down that Spring. The McCarthy may have looked poor and needed some paint done on her before then however, it seems that after the Duluth lay-up incident years ago is when I started to really notice the lack of paint on them. As for the Indiana Harbor, I can't recall but I'm sure its been many years and seasons since she also received a full paint job and makeover as well. As long as they are out and sailing and making money somehow IMO anyway that's the main thing. Believe it or not I never once in 2022 saw either the McCarthy or the Indy on the river which is very odd and unusual for me not to see either one. I take that as to the fact of them hauling less coal cargoes and more ore cargoes and going to Lake Michigan ports more to unload mainly Gary and Indiana Harbor and coming down here less and fewer.
Shipwatcher1
Posts: 489
Joined: April 19, 2011, 4:01 pm

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Shipwatcher1 »

Rand/LLT is now joining the group of not painting in dry dock now. Historically they had always been good about that during the 5 year, but last year the Saginaw emerged from dry dock looking like garbage, and now this year Manitowoc has done the same. Calumet is next in Toledo I believe and I'm sure the same will happen there now.

Then of course there is Algoma, the Buffalo looks like a total heap with rust blistering all over the hull, and they opted to not paint in DD last year either.
Guest

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Guest »

I always heard American Industrial Partners was a private equity firm that bought and then sold companies.

Seems to me that if you were trying to sell a fleet (or anything for that matter), you'd want it to look in it's best shape. So maybe they aren't going to sell.

But I also can't imagine their customers (the few that are left) would have a warm and fuzzy feeling chartering a boat that looked bad. And IMO they do care about their public image in a time of mass media esp. if something happens.
Guest_SB

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Guest_SB »

Back to activity, rather than lack of paint activity, the Indiana Harbor was undocked yesterday...no new paint...it moved onto Berth 15 outboard of the McCarthy.
Guest

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Guest »

Simply a corp $ business decision. The vessels you named are most likely on a course for long term layup or scrapping once coal cargoes are basically thing of the past not many years from now
Mn bob

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Mn bob »

If painting a ship is too costly at the time of there dry docking or 5 year inspections how come you only have a select few companies that still do paint there ships such as interlake and Great Lakes fleet. Seems like asc is the only company not spending the money to paint there ships. The American spirit last year and the Walter j McCarthy this year and possibly the Indians harbor when it comes out of dry dock did not receive paint.
Guest

Re: Paint the boat

Unread post by Guest »

CSLFAN wrote: February 20, 2023, 10:35 pm How many times have we heard this..."Paint dosen't haul cargo". Go back to the days when ships were fun to photograph...P&H, Soo River, Misener and Paterson just to name a few....the holds were filled to the brim with cargo. Yes, I have seen the McCarthy close up not to long ago and she is not alone. No paint equals rust. I wonder if the majority of her cargo is coal and she may be out of a job soon.
While it is true that paint doesn't haul cargo it does perform a vital maintenance function by preventing or at least slowing, corrosion, which in this case is to protect steel plating directly exposed to water and weather. Having worked in many both related and unrelated industries during my career, I can tell you that the deferment of general maintenance, of which hull painting would definitely qualify for an operating vessel, is in no way limited to the Great Lakes shipping industry. In my experience, the trend of reducing or deferring maintenance really began in about the mid-1990s. While deferring maintenance expenses may be positive for the bottom line in the short term, in the long term it can prove quite costly. In the case of hull plating not being adequately protected against the elements this will at some point lead to extensive plating repairs or, more likely, costly plating replacement. By that time, however, the required investment may have increased to the point as to be no longer cost effective. Although I realize that new environmental restrictions and lower manning levels have had a negative impact on ships being properly painted over the past few decades that does not explain the reluctance to repaint vessels as needed when drydocked. From watching the Great Lakes shipping industry over the past some 50 years it seems that when ships begin to be neglected in terms of painting they are usually nearing the end of their careers. Remember, the lack of painting is likely the most visible symptom of the lack of maintenance and only the operators themselves know of what other forms of preventive maintenance are being deferred. It appears that some new coatings on the market are capable of reducing resistance and therefore fuel consumption, so if that is true then painting serves another purpose besides corrosion protection.
Chris

Re: Sturgeon Bay Activity

Unread post by Chris »

Mn bob wrote: February 21, 2023, 12:00 am Why would they float the McCarthy out of the drydock without a rudder and prop missing? Unless they don’t have the parts to fix her. Maybe there not going to run her this year and use her for parts for the other footers in the fleet.
They can still do prop and rudder work put of drydock. Just have to ballast down the bow
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