Cuyahoga

Discussion board focusing on Great Lakes Shipping Question & Answer. From beginner to expert all posts are welcome.
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

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Guest wrote: June 2, 2023, 5:26 pm
Geest wrote: June 2, 2023, 8:10 am Those 5 boats are chartered from ASC to Grand River Navigation, so ASC would still be the owner of the vessels while Grand River is the operator. Similar to how the Am. Spirit was run when it was the Stinson; US Steel owned it, ASC operated it.

But who owns ASC, Grand River and Rand Logistics?
I'm responding to both quotes posts in this one.

Spirit was owned by a holding company called Stinson Inc. likely connected to National Steel, not US.

RAND-ASC owns American Steamship and Rand Logistics. Rand Logistics in turn owns Lower Lakes and Grand River. Grand River chartered the five ASC river boats to operate them while the actual owner is ASC, though in a way they are all owned and operated by the same group.
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

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Ok,if this is true it’s good news.
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

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Guest wrote: June 2, 2023, 10:48 pm There will eventually be a Canada transport report. Regardless of who the owner is on paper, it’s a Canadian registered vessel and the fire occurred in Canadian waters. Ownership, stockholders, investments firms, etc. all interesting reading that in the end changes nothing. It’s an 80 yr old ship that’s sailed hundreds of thousands of miles and hauled millions of tons of cargo. Plum worn out. Even before the fire it was very close to retirement. My bet is it goes to Ashtabula then Pt colborne. Owners take the hit of lost revenue but charge off the by now low value asset on the balance sheet. Reduced cargo volumes, higher expenses, more environmental rules, restrictions etc. fleets will continue to shrink on the Great Lakes.
She's going to Ashtabula for repairs.
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

Unread post by Guest »

There will eventually be a Canada transport report. Regardless of who the owner is on paper, it’s a Canadian registered vessel and the fire occurred in Canadian waters. Ownership, stockholders, investments firms, etc. all interesting reading that in the end changes nothing. It’s an 80 yr old ship that’s sailed hundreds of thousands of miles and hauled millions of tons of cargo. Plum worn out. Even before the fire it was very close to retirement. My bet is it goes to Ashtabula then Pt colborne. Owners take the hit of lost revenue but charge off the by now low value asset on the balance sheet. Reduced cargo volumes, higher expenses, more environmental rules, restrictions etc. fleets will continue to shrink on the Great Lakes.
CSLFAN

Re: Cuyahoga

Unread post by CSLFAN »

Between finding out who actually owns Cuyahoga and the actual extent of the fire damage we may never get an answer unless there is a Transportation Board report....Anybody out there got eyes on Cuyahoga for any activity....there was mentioned Rand stockholders in a previous post...the stock was listed at $0.03 at the time of the bankruptcy....no stockholder concerns there.
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

Unread post by Guest »

Geest wrote: June 2, 2023, 8:10 am Those 5 boats are chartered from ASC to Grand River Navigation, so ASC would still be the owner of the vessels while Grand River is the operator. Similar to how the Am. Spirit was run when it was the Stinson; US Steel owned it, ASC operated it.

But who owns ASC, Grand River and Rand Logistics?
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

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It seems to me that the mayday radio transmissions from the Cuyahoga and those concerning the crew preparing to abandon ship created some misleading information in the early hours of the incident. While preparing the crew to leave a ship with a fire that had not yet been contained or extinguished is a prudent and proper thing to do it also appears to have led to some initial misunderstanding by the ship watching community. This type of scenario can highlight some interesting facets of human nature. One of my nephews runs a Facebook group, which has nothing to do with this hobby or Great Lakes shipping in general, and he called me that night asking if I knew anything about what was happening. Apparently one of his posters was swearing up and down that he could see the Cuyahoga "burning from stem to stern" out on Lake Erie from the Canadian shore. Well, needless to say, he quickly deleted that post after determining what it was worth.
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

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Guest wrote: June 1, 2023, 4:08 pm Port City Marine Services is a US company that operates three tug/barge units all of which are US owned and flagged. They all carry cement cargoes. Then there is the St. Mary’s Cement in Canada. There’s the Petite Forte and the St. Mary’s Cement I barge. Then there’s the Sea Eagle II tug and barge St. Mary’s Cement II. Both of these then are Canadian flagged yet they unload Cement at US Ports and Docks for St. Mary’s Cement. I’m not sure how it works as far as their owners as I thought one of those two is owned or set up through a US subsidiary? It can get a bit confusing on this but, the Jones Act has a play too in this as far as fleet ownership and that stuff with the St. Mary’s Cement stuff if I’m correct on my information?
Port City Marine Services operates the three ATB's on the US side. Transport Canada has their Canadian wing listed as the owner of the Petite Forte - https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/4/ ... ils/359165 - and they operate the Canadian-flagged St. Marys Cement II/Sea Eagle II and St. Marys Cement. This information is all listed in the 2023 Know Your Ships book
Geest

Re: Cuyahoga

Unread post by Geest »

Those 5 boats are chartered from ASC to Grand River Navigation, so ASC would still be the owner of the vessels while Grand River is the operator. Similar to how the Am. Spirit was run when it was the Stinson; US Steel owned it, ASC operated it.
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

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AIP's website says they exited ownership of Rand in 2023 - https://americanindustrial.com/project/rand-logistics/

I wonder if Oaktree bought them out or if another investment group stepped in?

Interesting- AIP sold a minority stake in 2021 to Oaktree. Articles at the time hinted that Rand was worth a billion dollars. Fast forward to today and
Rand is listed as one on AIP's previously owned companies. Oaktree Capital lists Rand as one of their companies and their is a link to Rand's website.
I was unable to find any press releases about Oaktree owning all of Rand and ASC. Or of another company being involved in ownership.

Rand's website still states they are owned by American Industrial Partners but that page doesn't look like it's been updated since 2020. The jobs section appears active though.

American Steamship's website has no references to Rand Logistics but ASC's fleet list includes some of the same boats that Rand Logistics lists as theirs on it's website.

M/V American Courage
M/V American Mariner
M/V Sam Laud
M/V John J. Boland
M/V H. Lee White

So perhaps someone here on Boatnerd knows more and can share some details on what happened.
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

Unread post by Guest »

Port City Marine Services is a US company that operates three tug/barge units all of which are US owned and flagged. They all carry cement cargoes. Then there is the St. Mary’s Cement in Canada. There’s the Petite Forte and the St. Mary’s Cement I barge. Then there’s the Sea Eagle II tug and barge St. Mary’s Cement II. Both of these then are Canadian flagged yet they unload Cement at US Ports and Docks for St. Mary’s Cement. I’m not sure how it works as far as their owners as I thought one of those two is owned or set up through a US subsidiary? It can get a bit confusing on this but, the Jones Act has a play too in this as far as fleet ownership and that stuff with the St. Mary’s Cement stuff if I’m correct on my information?
Geest

Re: Cuyahoga

Unread post by Geest »

Guest wrote: May 31, 2023, 6:47 pm It's worse now. Money is no longer flowing freely from special purpose acquisition company(s) and interest rates are 5 times what they were 2 years ago. So a buyer in IMO going to be even harder to find.
AIP's website says they exited ownership of Rand in 2023 - https://americanindustrial.com/project/rand-logistics/

I wonder if Oaktree bought them out or if another investment group stepped in?
Guest wrote: May 31, 2023, 9:36 am any damage to the Cuyahoga is a drop in the bucket from an overall portfolio perspective. The financial returns of these companies aren’t dependent on any single asset, and if I had to bet this would be at the very most an asterisk in the next earnings report. Since these firms are private, there isn’t much we can expect to hear.
True enough but if the boat is done for or at least out of service thats a lot of tonnage its not going to be carrying which is probably spread over the rest of the Canadian fleet, meaning some customers are going to get dropped or less delivered than what they expected.
guest

Re: Cuyahoga

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what vessels does port city marine services canada operate? or is it only on paper?
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

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jim gallant wrote: May 31, 2023, 3:31 pm yes you are corrrct rand is the only fleet that operates under both flags on the great lakes how ever algoma central corp. is the larget fleet operating on the great lakes,bulkers,selfunloaders,tankers and cement vessels
This is not correct about the only fleet operating under both flags, Port City Marine Services of Muskegon now has a Canadian side company as well (Port City Marine Services Canada) and operates both a U.S. fleet and a Canadian fleet.
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

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Guest wrote: May 31, 2023, 9:36 am Rand hasn’t been publicly traded since it filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in 2018, and is currently owned by New York based private equity firm American Industrial Partners, with a large minority stake held by Oaktree Capital. Private equity investment strategies vary, but these companies typically attempt to buy lower value firms, restructure them from an operational or credit perspective, and sell/“exit” at a higher price. Said differently, they don’t behave like large publicly traded businesses in that PE investors aren’t focused on long term value.

I’m not in the shipping industry- you can probably guess which industry I’m in- but website references strategies based on operational efficiencies, and that’s some of what we’re seeing with Rand and American Steamship vessels with regard to visibly deferred maintenance. I wouldn’t be surprised if crew and maintenance policies were pushed to regulatory limits, because this is the sort of change that would boost near term profits and position the owners for a sale when market conditions are favorable. Bloomberg reported that AIP and Oaktree were initially positioning the company for a sale in 2021.


AIP and Oaktree maintain diversified portfolios of companies in the industrial sector across the U.S. and Canada, so any damage to the Cuyahoga is a drop in the bucket from an overall portfolio perspective. The financial returns of these companies aren’t dependent on any single asset, and if I had to bet this would be at the very most an asterisk in the next earnings report. Since these firms are private, there isn’t much we can expect to hear.

Interesting comments. Makes you wonder who they thought was going to buy the fleet in 2021. COVID didn't help either.

It's worse now. Money is no longer flowing freely from special purpose acquisition company(s) and interest rates are 5 times what they were 2 years ago. So a buyer in IMO going to be even harder to find.

Perhaps only the family held companies will survive on the US Side.
jim gallant

Re: Cuyahoga

Unread post by jim gallant »

yes you are corrrct rand is the only fleet that operates under both flags on the great lakes how ever algoma central corp. is the larget fleet operating on the great lakes,bulkers,selfunloaders,tankers and cement vessels
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

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Surely two major groundings and a fire in less than six months is not unusual? There has certainly been consolidation but as an avid boat nerd, three major incidents in 2023 is alarming. Still I only want the best for all the fleets.


I do not think anyone has implied that Rand is a “boogie man”. However, the Mariner and Boland both recently had serious hull damage and now a fire. It does tarnish their reputation though.
[/quote]

As Great Lakes shipping fleets have been further consolidated over the past 20 years leaving only a few major shipping companies left, the rate of incidents for each of these remaining firms will increase in proportion to the number of ships they each operate. Throw in an overall aging fleet (especially under the US flag) and the operational patterns in which many of these ships operate and the accidents you mention are not necessarily anything unusual. Remember that just three years ago, the American Mariner and John J. Boland were part of another fleet and their accidents would have had no bearing on Rand if the consolidation had not taken place. With its combined holdings of American Steamship, Grand River Navigation, and Lower Lakes Towing fleets, Rand owns the largest fleet of ships on the lakes and, as far as I know, is the only firm that operates ships under both the US and Canadian flag. I believe some of the negativity expressed over the years on these boards among the hobbyist community is the company's policy of being somewhat tight-lipped about incidents such as the Cuyahoga fire but in reality, that is something that is neither unique with this company nor the Great Lakes shipping industry as a whole.
[/quote]
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

Unread post by Guest »

Rand hasn’t been publicly traded since it filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in 2018, and is currently owned by New York based private equity firm American Industrial Partners, with a large minority stake held by Oaktree Capital. Private equity investment strategies vary, but these companies typically attempt to buy lower value firms, restructure them from an operational or credit perspective, and sell/“exit” at a higher price. Said differently, they don’t behave like large publicly traded businesses in that PE investors aren’t focused on long term value.

I’m not in the shipping industry- you can probably guess which industry I’m in- but website references strategies based on operational efficiencies, and that’s some of what we’re seeing with Rand and American Steamship vessels with regard to visibly deferred maintenance. I wouldn’t be surprised if crew and maintenance policies were pushed to regulatory limits, because this is the sort of change that would boost near term profits and position the owners for a sale when market conditions are favorable. Bloomberg reported that AIP and Oaktree were initially positioning the company for a sale in 2021.


AIP and Oaktree maintain diversified portfolios of companies in the industrial sector across the U.S. and Canada, so any damage to the Cuyahoga is a drop in the bucket from an overall portfolio perspective. The financial returns of these companies aren’t dependent on any single asset, and if I had to bet this would be at the very most an asterisk in the next earnings report. Since these firms are private, there isn’t much we can expect to hear.
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

Unread post by Guest »

Guest wrote: May 30, 2023, 7:47 pm I do not think anyone has implied that Rand is a “boogie man”. However, the Mariner and Boland both recently had serious hull damage and now a fire. It does tarnish their reputation though.
As Great Lakes shipping fleets have been further consolidated over the past 20 years leaving only a few major shipping companies left, the rate of incidents for each of these remaining firms will increase in proportion to the number of ships they each operate. Throw in an overall aging fleet (especially under the US flag) and the operational patterns in which many of these ships operate and the accidents you mention are not necessarily anything unusual. Remember that just three years ago, the American Mariner and John J. Boland were part of another fleet and their accidents would have had no bearing on Rand if the consolidation had not taken place. With its combined holdings of American Steamship, Grand River Navigation, and Lower Lakes Towing fleets, Rand owns the largest fleet of ships on the lakes and, as far as I know, is the only firm that operates ships under both the US and Canadian flag. I believe some of the negativity expressed over the years on these boards among the hobbyist community is the company's policy of being somewhat tight-lipped about incidents such as the Cuyahoga fire but in reality, that is something that is neither unique with this company nor the Great Lakes shipping industry as a whole.
Guest

Re: Cuyahoga

Unread post by Guest »

Rand Logistics is traded on Nasdaq with their symbol being RLOG.
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