Edmund Fitzgerald, broken keel?

[Jerry at Duluth]

Brett, I hope that your gathering goes well. If you have another in the summer, I will be glad to put on the presentation that I did on the sinking of the Fitzgerald during the last Gales of November.

[Guest]

They would do a spar ceck inspection to look for any damage to deck strake, hatches and hatch coamings by unloading equipment. It's easier to do it during the sailing deason because of availability of manpower. On October 31, the Fitz after unloading moved over to the Hans Hansen dock for the spar deck inspection and to "tip ship", that is ballast the forward area, so the propeller could be examined for damage. Afterwards, she left for Silver Bay, loading for Ashtaubula.

So would this indicate that something was indeed suspected to be wrong with the propeller in the trips previous to the sinking? The bill of lading that I mentioned earlier, I believe was dated October 29th.

[Guest]

Don't forget the Sparrows Point and the Johnstown.

The Johnstown went to scrap in the 1980's due to a glut of capacity in their fleet with nothing wrong with her. There was just no market for a modern straight decker.

And even the Sparrows Point, her sistership in the Bethlehem fleet that had been converted to a self-unloader in 1980, was sold alongside the Lewis Wilson Foy to Columbia in 1990.

Nothing wrong with the Arthur B. Homer, she was just excess capacity with no cargo for her haul. Thus there was no justification to hang on to her, convert her to self-unloading standards, or a market to sell her to.

[Russ]

Actually, by 1980, Bethlehem had three thousand foot self unloading vessels (Foy, Burns Harbor, and Stewart J. Cort). Later in the 1980's, business was so bad that Bethlehem ending up selling a new thousand-foot self unloading vessel. Since Bethlehem had more carrying capacity than they needed to supply their own mills, the Homer became excess capacity. Because the other fleets were laying up and scrapping their own vessels at the same time , there was no market for an 800 foot boat without a boom. The Homer remained at the wall until 1985 and when she was fully amortized after 25 years, she was scrapped.

[Alex]

Mopar Tim, the Homer became surplus after Bethlehem Steel received the Lewis Wilson Foy (American Integrity) and later the Burns Harbor, both being 1000' self-unloaders. The 80s saw a parade of boats sent to scrap way ahead of their time to be cut up. If it didn't have a boom and was a surplus, it was towed away. Along with the Homer, other boats that got scrapped were the original William Clay Ford of 1953, the George M. Humphrey of 1954, John Dykstra of the Ford Fleet, the Johnstown fleetmate to the Homer, and the list goes on. Such ashame to see so many fine boats
sent to scrap.

[mn brett]

With 13 Thousand footer's built in the 70s and early 80's sent hundreds of Boats to the Scrap yard,The Fitz had a 25 year charter to Oglebay Norton,so along with the down turn in the economy,and The Fitz's charter being expired in 83 ,both the Homer and the Fitz would have likely went to scrap. mn brett

[mopar tim]

Tim...Crewed the Homer 77-80. How may I help you with any questions?

Would be very interested in knowing what you thought of the way the Homer rode in weather and was she in bad shape or in need of repairs. Also why get rid of a boat as young as the Homer. Thank you for responding and looking forward to your reply. Tim

[WM4504]

Tim...Crewed the Homer 77-80. How may I help you with any questions?

[Guest]

They would do a spar ceck inspection to look for any damage to deck strake, hatches and hatch coamings by unloading equipment. It's easier to do it during the sailing deason because of availability of manpower. On October 31, the Fitz after unloading moved over to the Hans Hansen dock for the spar deck inspection and to "tip ship", that is ballast the forward area, so the propeller could be examined for damage. Afterwards, she left for Silver Bay, loading for Ashtaubula.

[Paul A]

Now I understand your thought mn brett and I agree. Same displacement with a different shape.

[mn brett]

I don't agree Paul A,It would add a Belly to the bottom and when they measure the load lines on the Bow and the Stern, the shimmed belly would be deeper,so front and back would be 26 feet,shimmed middle would be 26 foot four! just numbers as an example,but I still do not see how there could ever become a space between the ribs and the bottom sheeting with the pressure pushing up from the water below! mn brett

[mopar tim]

A very good thread indeed. What about the Homer? does anyone know or has heard stories on how well she rode a storm. Also was she so cobbled up with shim's that they just decided to get rid of her rather than fix the problem?. Once again this thread is great stuff.

[Paul A]

This has been an interesting thread. Re: shims. I think the hull would keep the same buoyancy depth and the shims would raise the height of everything above (spar deck and superstructure)

[mn brett]

We just had a discussion a month ago,Jerry Lawson had responded about the bottom plates,being laid done first when built ,and than welded together to make one big flat piece of sheeting,than the center framing with the tank tops were set on the center of One massive(guessing 1 inch thick) bottom plating. the distance between the bottom plating and the tank tops were 7 feet,witch made the ballast tank,the framing or ribbing would have been either 2 feet or 4 feet apart,now when the ribbing was set on the bottom plate,all of the ribs should have had to be welded to all the contact points. Evan if the ribs were not welded properly to the bottom sheets,there shouldn't be any chance of any gaps being between the ribs and the sheets for spaces to accure with the massive pressure pushing up from the water below! So if they said they had to drive in shims how would there be gaps with all the weight?, I could see though,if the welds were broken and loose so the ribs could slide against the bottom sheets! Another thing about gaps and shimming,the load marks are closely watched so they can put on the maximum cargo that allows them to go to there destination without scraping the bottom, that changes all season as the water depths change. I was listening in one night while in Our Camper in Duluth to the Presque Isle talking on the Marine radio to one of the Men in charge on one of the Triple A's, He was loaded to 26 foot 6 inches,and He was sweating the whole trip being at that depth all the way to Duluth with a load of stone! So if they are cutting it so close with as little as an inch or two!,I would think driving wedges into gaps would for sure change the depth in the plating,and make the front and back inch marks worthless! is this reasonable logic? mn brett

[garbear]

Did the Clarke take the northern route like the Anderson and the Fitz did garbear?,You were about 4 hours ahead of the two,was this storm the worst You have ever seen? again I am just going buy what I have read,but I heard Captain Cooper was actually in His room during most of the ordeal,and the Mates were on the Radio with McSorley,so Cooper wasn't in the mind set of being in great distress if He was in His quarters and in bed.

Brett-First I want to qualify a statement I made in the post I made yesterday. When I was talking about securing the deck I was talking about boats with one-piece hatches and a hatch crane. I wasn't talking about telescopic hatches and tarps because I know that was a whole different story.
I know I've posted some of this in the past, but here goes.
I was a deckhand, so I wasn't "in" on what went on in the pilothouse. We went to work that morning at 8 and we didn't step foot on deck all day. Our bosun Tom had us do "busy work." Nothing that had to be done, just stay busy. Early afternoon, probably 1:30-2, we knocked off for the day. Tom just told us that once we went around Whitefish, we'd get the garbage out and whatever else that would go off at the supply boat. After we knocked off I went back to my room and kept watching the weather out my portholes and trying to pick up any talk on the Marine radio band on my Zenith Trans-Oceanic Radio.
http://www.universal-radio.com/used/u906lrg.jpg
Just as an aside, my son still has the radio in his garage.
I'll never forget this as long as I live, but I picked up one side of a conversation between a vessel agent(his conversation I could here) and a boat. As the agent was talking he said-"Just to let you know, you're in competition with the Fitzgerald for the unloading dock."
As we approached Whitefish I could see the Algosoo close to the shore, so probably we did come down from the North because I could see the Algosoo straight out my porthole and behind us. I got out my camera and took a couple shots of her. After we got inside of Whitefish we put out the garbage. I kept my camera out and I got a shot of the William R. Roesch heading for Lake Superior.
To sum it up. Until we got to the Soo it seemed like some rough weather, but all hell broke loose once we got to the Locks. It was and still is the worst weather I've ever seen. And that's living for 27 years 5 blocks from Lake Michigan near the Manistee/Benzie County line and sailing for 9 years and living no more than 3 miles from Lake Superior here in Duluth since 1979.
The following day we didn't work because of Veteran's Day, so I was up early trying to get news on the Fitzgerald and check on traffic in the St. Mary's. Just at sunrise I got shots of the Paul Thayer and the P.D. Block both anchored in the lower river waiting on weather. Once we got to Conneaut I called home and talked to my parents and my Dad said he heard the same radio broadcast about the competition for the unloading dock.
Sorry for all the rambling on. I had to get the photo album out this morning and take a look at those photos I took. Hard to believe it was that many years ago.

[Duluth Guest]

It's interesting to hear that she had a spar deck inspection at Toledo in October of 1975. Why would they do a spar deck inspection?

The reason I ask is because I had a bill of lading from the Fitz right around this time period that indicated an abnormally long loading time and an abnormally small load being taken from Silver Bay. It's quite possible that she took a split load from the Superior, Wi. docks and then topped off at Silver Bay. I know this has happened occasionally before and at least once in October 1975. It explains the small cargo but not the long loading time.

I can attest to he multiple layers of paint coating nearly everything on the USS GLF boats as I added a layer or two of green myself but things may have been different on the Columbia boats. If a blade replacement was anticipated, the deck crew would have had ample time to have gotten it ready. If the replacement was deemed unecessary, it may not have gotten re-secured well.

I'm going to toss some more fuel to the fire here too since I like these good discussions. One of the underwater videos reportedly showed that quite a bit of cable had been payed out from the forward deck winches. This would have been something that needed to be done my someone on board if I am not mistaken. It suggests that something was indeed going on on-deck during the storm for whatever reason and that activity was suspended by McSorley.

[mn brett]

Did the Clarke take the northern route like the Anderson and the Fitz did garbear?,You were about 4 hours ahead of the two,was this storm the worst You have ever seen? again I am just going buy what I have read,but I heard Captain Cooper was actually in His room during most of the ordeal,and the Mates were on the Radio with McSorley,so Cooper wasn't in the mind set of being in great distress if He was in His quarters and in bed.

[Guest]

The Fitzgerald had its last inspection for certification on 9 April 1975 at Toledo.

The Fitzgerald had a Spar Deck Inspection, also at Toledo, on 31 October 1975.

There is no indication in the Marine Casualty report on the loss of the Fitzgerald that the Fitzgerald was in dry dock at any time during 1975 except for the two dates mentioned above.

If the Fitzgerald went into Sturgeon Bay for "a emergency repair job" as mentioned in the video, this may have been for something as simple as repairs to a windlass, etc. I agree that if the ship had went into the drydock at Sturgeon Bay just before the loss, there is no way this would have gone unnoticed during the investigation into the wreck.

In addition, the video can lead to some confusion as to the fact that only two ships of this design were ever built. This can be taken to imply that the design was faulty in some way. The real truth, however, is that the US flagged fleet went through a temporary cessation of new vessel construction between 1961 and 1972. By which time, of course, the Great Lakes Engineering Works had passed into the history books.

[relally]

I'll just throw this out there... If a prop blade was loose, the blade would be contained by the shear strake. I would think something as heavy as a blade could do some serious damage to anything in its way. As far as the last unloading port, I believe it was Ashtabula.

[garbear]

I know what the weather was like that whole day and no one on Clarke went on the deck all day. We finally went on deck after we were inside Whitefish. That was around 4:00 p.m. I've read that post before about the crew member on deck, but I don't know how it would have been possible and what it could have been that one crew member thought they could rectify. They would have been taking continuous water across the deck. I've seen weather that wasn't that bad and you didn't go on the deck, so I have no idea what the problem could have been.
Also, back to the "Tugboat Jim" video talking about the hatches not being on. Probably most of the "boatnerds" that sailed can tell you most Captains' didn't sit at the dock to wait for the hatches to be put on. Backing away from BN if the deck crew was worth its salt, they should have had the hatches on, clamped down, and the hatch crane secured before they cleared the Superior breakwall. Thought the weather was nice that day, so as far as I'm concerned, that was a non-issue. An example, on the Clarke we could have the hatches on and the deck secured by the time we rounded Rice's Point and headed for the Duluth piers. I sailed with 5 permanent Captains on the Clarke, plus relief Captains, and 2 Captains on the Watson, and unless the weather was extremely bad, we never sat at the dock to secure the deck. I remember going around the breakwall in Two Harbors taking slop over the side while we still were securing the deck, so it was a rarity if you sat.