Footer Life Span

[Denny]

You are correct GuestfromEU as that happened in 2008 in the Spring! This caused her stern to settle and sink in about 21 or so feet of water if I’m correct? It sure created a mess and caused them to sail late then!

[GuestfromEU]

Another incident involving an ASC 1,000 footer if some remember and recall, involved the Walter J. McCarthy Jr. back during the late 2000s when she laid up in Duluth. At that time, they laid up at Hallet Docks. They struck an object thus resulting in flooding in the engine room and this caused the vessel I think to sink a little bit due to the flooding in the engine room area? The point is, because of this incident the Mac did not return to service until early May! It seems that I recall this incident back in around the 2008 shipping season possibly? Surely somebody will have and know more on this. I do know and remember it created a major mess for both ASC, the McCarthy and Hallet Docks. Since that time and incident, “No ASC ship has laid up at the Hallet Docks in Duluth since!” Needless to say the cost and repairs to fix the Wally Mac if you will was very extensive and costly well into the millions. I’m sure that ASC really felt the pinch and sting if you will since the McCarthy was out of service until May of that season. Again I’m sure someone will have more here.

When backing into the slip, she holed a seachest on a submerged object, flooding the lower level of the engine room to the ballast waterline. The main engines, generators, and auxiliaries were all underwater.

I also believe the spools of electrical wire delivered on board during the repairs were stolen and resold to a local scrap yard for cash on the copper value, subsequently recovered.

[Denny]

Another incident involving an ASC 1,000 footer if some remember and recall, involved the Walter J. McCarthy Jr. back during the late 2000s when she laid up in Duluth. At that time, they laid up at Hallet Docks. They struck an object thus resulting in flooding in the engine room and this caused the vessel I think to sink a little bit due to the flooding in the engine room area? The point is, because of this incident the Mac did not return to service until early May! It seems that I recall this incident back in around the 2008 shipping season possibly? Surely somebody will have and know more on this. I do know and remember it created a major mess for both ASC, the McCarthy and Hallet Docks. Since that time and incident, “No ASC ship has laid up at the Hallet Docks in Duluth since!” Needless to say the cost and repairs to fix the Wally Mac if you will was very extensive and costly well into the millions. I’m sure that ASC really felt the pinch and sting if you will since the McCarthy was out of service until May of that season. Again I’m sure someone will have more here.

[Guest]

Her stop in Erie was for repairs from hitting the breakwall at Conneaut.

[hausen]

Looked into it a bit further and here’s what I could find in the boatnerd news and info. search archives on a small phone screen and with a slow connection:

Indiana Harbor is rumored to have suffered a bulkhead collapse while loading her first cargo of the season at Silver Bay in the spring of 2015.

Seems like that bulkhead was repaired and she returned to service, as she’s listed as going into winter layup in November 2015.

She sat out almost the entire 2016 season. Demand for cargo may have been soft in some sectors that year. If I recall correctly her 5-year was due and ASC anticipated that she was going to need further bulkhead repair that was too extensive to warrant rushing it at the time. She activated in late Nov 2016 and headed for Bay Ship for repair work and 5-year. The next spring she returned light to the Twin Ports in April 2017, ostensibly for further cargo hold/structural work, possibly because Bay Ship was too busy to complete soon enough for ASC’s liking. She returned to service later that month, though she was photographed during a stopover at Donjon in Erie in May 2017, not sure about reason/duration there.

[Guest]

It was the Walter J. McCarthy, Jr. She laidup at Duluth, Elevator M on January 14, 2010. On March 27, 2010 she departed Duluth in ballast for Sturgeon Bay to have her bulkheads replaced.

Brian

[Shipwatcher1]

In the long run there might prove to be a significant disparity between the lifespans of the thousand footers. It is often noted that some of the footers are "built like tanks" and those comments typically seem to insinuate ships like the Gott, Speer, and Cort. Those ships might prove to last a long, long time depending on the state of demand for iron ore products in the Great Lakes region.

On the other hand there is a thousand footer that even almost twenty years ago was rumored to have surprisingly significant structural deficiencies and wear in her cargo holds. Sure enough a number of years later she suffered a bulkhead collapse and was laid up in Superior for something like a year before demand for cargo led to her repair and reactivation. Ships like that would likely be among the first footers to meet the end of their lifespans.

Which one suffered the bulkhead collapse?

I think Indiana Harbor is the only one to spend a partial season at the wall recently.

[Bob]

I believe it was the Indiana harbor that had the bulkhead collapse when loading its first cargo of the season in silver bay 3 to 5 years ago

[Guest]

Which one suffered the bulkhead collapse?

American Spirit.

[Guest]

In the long run there might prove to be a significant disparity between the lifespans of the thousand footers. It is often noted that some of the footers are "built like tanks" and those comments typically seem to insinuate ships like the Gott, Speer, and Cort. Those ships might prove to last a long, long time depending on the state of demand for iron ore products in the Great Lakes region.

On the other hand there is a thousand footer that even almost twenty years ago was rumored to have surprisingly significant structural deficiencies and wear in her cargo holds. Sure enough a number of years later she suffered a bulkhead collapse and was laid up in Superior for something like a year before demand for cargo led to her repair and reactivation. Ships like that would likely be among the first footers to meet the end of their lifespans.

Which one suffered the bulkhead collapse?

[hausen]

In the long run there might prove to be a significant disparity between the lifespans of the thousand footers. It is often noted that some of the footers are "built like tanks" and those comments typically seem to insinuate ships like the Gott, Speer, and Cort. Those ships might prove to last a long, long time depending on the state of demand for iron ore products in the Great Lakes region.

On the other hand there is a thousand footer that even almost twenty years ago was rumored to have surprisingly significant structural deficiencies and wear in her cargo holds. Sure enough a number of years later she suffered a bulkhead collapse and was laid up in Superior for something like a year before demand for cargo led to her repair and reactivation. Ships like that would likely be among the first footers to meet the end of their lifespans.

[Guest]

We wouldn't be seeing Interlake and Great Lakes Fleet doing repowering jobs in recent years if the hull wasn't sound.

[Guest]

The usage of AH 36 high-strength steel in the in the hulls of the BayShip thousand footers and I would assume in the AmShip thousand footers caused American Bureau of Shipping to allow a 17% reduction in scantlings compared to a similar hull built with ordinary stength steel. (BTW, the Roger Blough has high-strength steel in her deck only, while the Stewart J. Cort has high-strength steel in her deck and bottom.)

The 25-35 year life expectancy is being confused with the 35-year economic life and tax life of the ship. The later two are strictly an accounting practice at the time of their building. Obviously when they were built they were amortized over a 35 year period. Any upgrades, such as repowerings would be a capital expense and have to be amortized over a period of time, the length of which is dependent on IRS accounting rules.

[Guest]

So if the steel isn't in good shape then all bets are off, I personally think there fine, couldn't see Interlake putting all that repowering money into its ships if hulls were rotten. Which brings up another scenario maybe they could get new forebodies like CSL did 20yrs ago!

[Jerry at Duluth]

I am interested in your statement that the vessels were constructed of hiigh strength steel of a 25 to30 year fatigue life assessment. On what facts or studys do you base that statement.
Jerry

[GuestfromEU]

I am not familiar with the Great Lakes provisions of ABS Class Rules. Does anyone know the UT requirements for a survey cycle?

Ultrasonic Testing (UT) is generally on an enhanced scheme for vessels containing high tensile structural steel, with special focus on butt weld seams.

The Great Lakes fresh water certainly does help with regards to corrosion, but there are other wear factors at play, high tensile steel being an inevitable concern. Corrosion is not the concern here, fatigue is.

Do any of the US-flag ships on the Lakes have coated ballast tanks (anything 1980s-vintage and older)?

[Guest]

The footers will survive with no need to replace as there in fresh water so unlike the Canadian ships there steel is excellent, usually when there was a building boom on the Lakes new more modern ships were replacing older less efficient ones i.e. 20 thousand ton ships being replaced with 26 thousand ton ships quite a bit when one ship has 50 trips now a new footer considering cost to build really no difference in size or tonnage maybe again 5+ thou tons you can repower existing footers with same power plants you'd put in new builds , so long story short I don't think you'd get enough bang for your buck building new footers to replace existing ones, only way new ones are built would be need for much more tonnage 10's of millions and or a government program subsidizing shipbuilding

What basis do you have determining their steel is excellent? These vessels are 30-40 years old, build of higher strength steels on a 25-30 year fatigue life assessment. They are certainly showing their age. Externally they look decent, but a thorough examination of their internals tells a very different story.

[Guest]

The footers will survive with no need to replace as there in fresh water so unlike the Canadian ships there steel is excellent, usually when there was a building boom on the Lakes new more modern ships were replacing older less efficient ones i.e. 20 thousand ton ships being replaced with 26 thousand ton ships quite a bit when one ship has 50 trips now a new footer considering cost to build really no difference in size or tonnage maybe again 5+ thou tons you can repower existing footers with same power plants you'd put in new builds , so long story short I don't think you'd get enough bang for your buck building new footers to replace existing ones, only way new ones are built would be need for much more tonnage 10's of millions and or a government program subsidizing shipbuilding

[Guest]

Vessels of 730ft by 75ft can use the MacArthur Lock. If the Poe Lock is out of service longer than 24 hours, the District Engineer may allow vessels of 767ft, but not exceeding that length to use the lock. Regulations are in the Federal Register (see section "v")

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/207.440

[Guest]

All of the Seaway size vessels can fit through the Mac...its the same size as all the locks below...it's just the USACE policy that they have to go through the Poe???

Correct. I was told that they would only allow it in "emergency" situations...ie the Poe is down.