St. Clair on Fire News Update

[GuestfromEU]

Opening locks early? "Fast-tracking" the Anderson's return? Re-flagging the Valor (which would, quite literally, require Congressional approval)? These are fanciful notions from a small and devoted group of boat watching hobbyists. Here's what's going to happen, short term. Nothing, other than perhaps ASC fitting some boats out a week or two earlier than planned and the dispatchers getting creative and trying to squeeze in a extra trip here or there, either with their own equipment or seeing if a competitor has an opening for a load. My guess is this vessel will not be replaced (on a one to one basis) this season.

You are absolutely correct. While it was publicized that ASC intended to sail all of their vessels this year, losing one hull from their available options will not be a dealbreaker. They will find a way to make it work, whether floating more cargo themselves and/or outsourcing to other carriers. Their contracts/charterparties likely contain force majeure or other incapacitation clauses as well.

It's human nature to have wishful hopes and dreams, and that can make for interesting conversation, as long as all understand it is simply "what-if" talk. There absolutely has been no calls by their team to other companies, asking to charter or purchase an outside vessel.

With the softening of the coal market there is no pressing need to replace lost capacity in the near future. While 2019 may show high utilization rates of available tonnage, the national and global economy is a fluid, changing force. In 2020 we have the new ATB from VanEnkevort coming online, further adding capacity.

Also, depending on the P&I Club policy, ASC may be directed to repair/rebuild the St Clair if the claim is paid. In other words, they may propose alternatives to the P&I Club (scrapping, converting in some form, etc), but they likely will not be able to take the settlement and not repair the vessel. The settlement amount will be based on the cost to repair the vessel, and if the intention is to recycle the entire ship, then the settlement will be paid at a lower amount (if at all). As an analogy, if your personal automobile is damaged in a fender bender, and your insurance agrees to pay out X amount of dollars for the repairs, you are legally obligated to complete those repairs. While some will pocket the money, the contract you have with the insurance provider (as dictated in your policy declarations) stipulate that funds received must be used to repair the vehicle to the original condition. They are insuring a vehicle in a known condition, and as the policyholder, you are obligated to maintain that condition.

[Swim Trunks]

The ownership of the St Clair is going to hope for the insurance company to declare the ship a total loss. Costs of repair to a 40 year old boat that is also ill designed for the Great Lakes a non-starter. Lawyers are going to keep busy and well fed on this one representing the owner, insurance company and whoever it was determined was behind the fire starting in the first place. Not to mention the dock owner and local municipality given the faulty fire hydrants.

[Shipwatcher1]

We might know the disposition of the St. Clair sooner rather than later. That Alpena fire led some to think it could be the end of the line for it, but they got right on fixing it up.

Alpena didn't sustain near the amount of damage the St Clair has.

[Denny]

In looking at the recent photos of the damage to the St. Clair in the Photo Gallery on the News Page, it would appear to me anyway that the fire started behind the accommodation area and quickly spread forward. It also appears from the looks of the stern end of the vessel and the accommodation area, that the starboard side got the worst of the fire but don't get me wrong either though as each side got burned up very badly. Very sad and unfortunate to see her end up this way. As others have said and I echo my own words and comments, glad that nobody was aboard and there was no injuries and especially nobody got killed! Thank goodness for the firefighters as well and that none of them were seriously hurt, injured or killed. Yesterday I told a few people that "They were very lucky and fortunate there weren't any high or dangerous winds in fighting that fire." Had there been high and dangerous winds, it's possible the fire could've been far more worse and also could have even spread further. Just my two cents and thoughts.

[Lakercapt]

On the Cartiercliffe Hall only the accommodation was replaced. The engine room was still the same German unit.

[Jon Paul]

As I posted earlier in this thread, the fire aboard Roger Blough is the only real comparison to use here. The aft accommodations and engine room were gutted by the fire but unlike St Clair the Blough's didn't extend into the cargo hold.
The fire occured in drydock and only a month before launch.
It took almost a year to repair at an estimated cost of $13 million, that would be equivalent to over $40 million in today's dollars.
It would seem far more prudent and cost effective to build a new ship than to put that kind of money into a 40+ year old boat.
It would also allow them to build a boat more suited to their current needs unlike St Clair which because of its unusual size seemed to be out of service more than their other boats.

[Darryl]

We might know the disposition of the St. Clair sooner rather than later. That Alpena fire led some to think it could be the end of the line for it, but they got right on fixing it up.

[Guest]

Is there any word as to whether the belt under the cargo hold also burned? From looking at the pictures on the News Channel it looks like the accommodation block has some severe buckling from the fire. From the stern shots, it looks like the fire spread up the tunnel to the stern with way the paint is burned off. Unfortunately, all of the images point to catastrophic damage.

[Shipwatcher1]

For now, we can think of the Cartiercliffe Hall, the most recent catastrophic damage of this extent. It was rebuilt and worked many more years.

Did the Cartiercliffe Hall fire cause actual damage to the hull? I remember the afterquarters and I think engine room were completely burned out, but I was thinking the damage was above critical hull parts.

The first thing that popped to my mind when reading about the St. Clair was the Harry L. Allen in Duluth. As I recall the firefighting efforts of cold water on hot hull plates combined with subzero temps is what made the Allen a total constructive loss as opposed to rebuilding the burned out pilot house.

If I recall, the Cartiercliffe Hall had her original engine up until she was cut up as Algontario, so perhaps her engine room at that time was spared from major damage in that 1979 fire.

[Guest]

On U.S. ships, are the winter ship keepers normally members of the ships regular crew? I believe the Canadian companies have learned the value of having a regular crew member, ideally an engineer, on board, doing bench work maintenance etc. In emergency situations such as this a regular crew member would have been a big asset to the firefighting - knowing the systems, compartments and knowing fire fighting capabilities/systems.
Does the St Clair have a cargo belt wash down system, or is it done manually by dragging hoses?
A good comparison disaster to this one was the (ex-Canadian) Ambassador fire in Belledune New Brunswick.
Often a problem with ship fires in port is "who's in charge?". It really needs to be a mariner with direct responsibility for the ship. I.e. someone who know that flooding the tunnel may be the best option.

[Charlie]

Have they brought in a salvage company yet. I would think to get the water out and to see whats causing a list you need people that do this kind of work.

[Guest]

Vessel registry being closed is a death sentence. All active vessels on the lakes have open registry, as does Valor.

[Jared]

The whole point of this website is to speculate and learn different views of things as they are so we get an understanding of what CAN happen vs what WILL happen.

I think no matter what the Valor is done for. Her registry is open and as I understand it that is usually a death sentence. ASC at best may be able to rent her out. Also with our regional politicians being more involved in the Lakes than in the past may be able to get Congress to overlook her. But she was put up for sale for a reason and sat out all those years for a reason. So what is the reason and what can and has to be done to make her run.

The Anderson coming off the wall is plausible however she is need of repairs and a 5 year. That's going to run the cost to around the $20 million range (speculation). Also she's owned by a competitor. I think the Anderson is safe for the moment. Everything is up to date and she is maintained while on the wall.

The Ryerson and Sherwin are non entities in this equation. One can only unload at a certain port plus needs a 5 year and whatever maintenance to get her running. The Sherwin is nothing but a floating hull with a dim future. Also both are owned by competitors.

I think that as I type this message there is a 70% St Clair is done for. I say clean her out and sink her in Lake Huron for underwater reef.

[hausen]

It should be noted that the St. Clair's self unloading system might be better described as an incline belt system, not a loop belt system. Not sure there is much or any part of her conveyor works that have a pinching / loop belt system. Her incline system is more similar to the ones on, say, the H. Lee White or the Robert S. Pierson. Loop belts systems are more vertically stacked (like on the Bayship thousand footers from Belle River/McCarthy onward) and don't require the longer stern / apparent extra length of fantail aft of the ship's cabins/superstructure.

[Guest]

Cartiercliffehall was rebuilt but she was practically a new ship, her sister Windoc suffered same sort of destructive fire and she was declared a total loss, nobody even knows what kind of Insurance ASC had maybe they hardly had any just liability in which case there would be no rebuild losses cut and get scrap value.

[Ray]

For now, we can think of the Cartiercliffe Hall, the most recent catastrophic damage of this extent. It was rebuilt and worked many more years.

Did the Cartiercliffe Hall fire cause actual damage to the hull? I remember the afterquarters and I think engine room were completely burned out, but I was thinking the damage was above critical hull parts.

The first thing that popped to my mind when reading about the St. Clair was the Harry L. Allen in Duluth. As I recall the firefighting efforts of cold water on hot hull plates combined with subzero temps is what made the Allen a total constructive loss as opposed to rebuilding the burned out pilot house.

[dcook]

There is, and will be, much speculation as to the cause and who is responsible for the fire on board the St. Clair. I spent 23 years working on the ships as a sailor and doing winter work and as a shipkeeper. One of my duties as a shipkeeper was to make daily rounds of the entire ship, including the conveyor spaces. This I did at the end of the workday after everyone else left the ship. I learned through prior posts that the shipkeeper was safe and not aboard at the time of the fire. I have no idea what ASC requires of their shipkeepers, but I can't help wonder if this fire had been a much smaller issue if he would have been aboard. People have also wondered about a fire watch during welding work. You would like to think that a fire watch would have always been set. As to local fire departments coming aboard to fight the fires, I agree with those who state that local departments are not trained to fight a shipboard fire. Anyone who has spent time aboard ship can fully understand what a nightmare situation it would be for anyone, especially for people not familiar with the inside of the vessel. Usually during layup the local Fire Marshall would come aboard our vessels and have a look around. One comment that was made was the first thing that would happen to the firefighters is they would fall flat on their face when they tripped over the coamings in all the hatchways.

[Guest]

Opening locks early? "Fast-tracking" the Anderson's return? Re-flagging the Valor (which would, quite literally, require Congressional approval)? These are fanciful notions from a small and devoted group of boat watching hobbyists. Here's what's going to happen, short term. Nothing, other than perhaps ASC fitting some boats out a week or two earlier than planned and the dispatchers getting creative and trying to squeeze in a extra trip here or there, either with their own equipment or seeing if a competitor has an opening for a load. My guess is this vessel will not be replaced (on a one to one basis) this season.

[Guest]

The problem for the St. Clair is that she's a 43- year old ship that in recent years was either idle or would only operate for part of a season. The Cartiercliffe Hall had only recently been re-built into a Great Lakes straight-decker when her devastating fire occurred.

[Guest]

There is little use of drawing comparisons between the Cartiercliffe Hall and St. Clair fires other than the accommodations being wrecked. What sets the St. Clair fire apart is that it obviously affected much, if not all, of the vessel's self-unloading equipment. This, in combination with the other machinery and cabin damage, will easily drive the cost of repairs to tens of millions of dollars with almost a complete rebuild necessary.