Marquette & Bessemer #2

[jgorski4]

Qestion? Can anyone tell me where I can get a dept of the silt and mud on Erie's south shore?

[jgorski4]

And thank you too Jared for the information and ideas.

John

[jgorski4]

Shawn, thankyou for the information; you've just given me more to look, and think about. I didn't know of these life boats being found. :D

I got more work to do, and you gave me more to look at.

John

[Jared]

We can sit here and speculate all day. The only way you are going to answer your questions is to put the sonar in the water and start mowing the lawn. I thought I had the Hydrus and Cogburn within a 20 square mile search area, so far I have put in at least 160 square miles and have not found either. Coming from wreckage reports, weather conditions, and last sightings, I have yet to run across either although finding many other lost wrecks.

I have a hard time imagining the decks being peeled back or blowing off. She could just have simply founderd after hours of taking a beating and finally succumbed leaving not much wreckage. We know that the crew must have known the end was near because they managed to get into the lifeboats. I also have a hard time thinking the ship is busted up and flattened on the bottom. The Sand Merchant, James Colgate, Admiral, Clevco, John Boland, and Merida are all steel hulled steamers that lie relatively intact and died hard deaths. Heck we can still find the James Reed after she had been dynamited and salvaged and still be able to pick up her bottom profile sitting in thick mud. All that is left is boilers and steel plates and junk, why are they not buried and forgotten?

Best thing to do is to search 1). Where the ships have been such as shipping lanes and alternate storm courses, 2). Last sightings and where would she run if she was in trouble, 3). Where wreckage was sighted trying to put together drift, current, and wind factors, 4). Search where no one has before in the area, and listen to rumors or fisherman stories.

You are on the right track. You are asking all the right questions, seeking the best information, have the drive to do it. Just remember that in the end it is a big lake and a ship will be found when she wants to be found. That's what most of us wreck hunters believe.

[Shawn]

In one of Dwight Boyer's books (the name escapes me; in the process of moving & everything is boxed up) he devotes a chapter to the loss of the No. 2. In it he says that a month prior to her loss, the No. 2 was in a similar storm and had listed so badly from water entering the open stern that the upper rails were under water.

That was "Ghost Ships of the Great Lakes", from 1968.

Good reading, but you're right about the sources. It seems in the bulk of the chapters there is a good amount of speculation as to what happened aboard the ships based on circumstantial evidence. Might keep you on the edge of your seat and bring you into the story but probably not a great one for reference of facts unless you can look past the embellishments.

[MilwBob]

Sorry I'm a bit late with this reply; life got in the way for a bit. Okay, so here goes my theroy for the moment. Jared so, far the evidence I'm finding proves you're right, she went down on the Canada side; but, (okay I'm a cop so this logic works well on car accidents so please don't hang me :D) I believe that she broke up, and went down in several pieces.

Theory 1) A ship at ancor saw her headed east; and her boiler's went out. As she went down, air compressed in the bow and blew it out; Like the Pere Marquette 18 (1). That's why the McLoids and the wheelsman were found on the east side of the Lake, with the lacerations on their abdomens. They got thrown over the wheel and through one of the cables.

Now, with no sea gate, and the bow gone, the hull could have collapsed like a box, onto itself. So, with the years; and the possability of thic ice pushing it down into the silt, it wouldn't show as a regular ship on any sonar imaging.

Theory 2) She shoaled, and had the bottom torn out of her, or at least gashed. The ship went with the movement of the storm without a choice. Giving a brief warning to the crew who were able to escape. And again, with the pressure blowing out the bow, and the hull collapsing onto itself like a box. The crew were inside, maybe trying to keep the cars from breaking free, when all this happened. Thus the limited people found.

I'm asking for ice thickness not because of the weather, but, for the idea that the hull and any part of the ship could have been pushed into the bed.

As of today I did find 3d graphics of the depth of the Lake, and hoping I can triangulate an idea from where the life boat was found, the bodies the next year; and hopefully find that inforamtion where the rail cars where suppose to have been found.

My research continues. And hope all this makes sense and helps.

John

In one of Dwight Boyer's books (the name escapes me; in the process of moving & everything is boxed up) he devotes a chapter to the loss of the No. 2. In it he says that a month prior to her loss, the No. 2 was in a similar storm and had listed so badly from water entering the open stern that the upper rails were under water. Capt. McLeod was purported to comment to his brother that he "d### near lost her". Also the cook was one of the men found in the lifeboat. As he neglected to grab warm weather gear before he got in the lifeboat but had presence of mind to grab some galley knives (found in the lifeboat) he (Boyer) said the speculation was that the boat was again in dire straits and that the crew, in somewhat of a panic, made a dash for the boats and the captain, in an attempt to restore order, was slashed with the knives, which accounted for his injuries. Unfortunately, Boyer did not cite his sources so I do not know where he got them from.

[MilwBob]

McKay was captain of the Milwaukee; Mcleod was captain of the No. 2. And in the cases where ferries went on the beach on Michigan, I think that was not done purposely; rather storm action forced the boats aground & to prevent further damage the boats were flooded so the would settle on the bottom. This was the case of the City of Flint in 1940; while inbound at Ludington, wave action cause her to strike bottom outside of the harbor entrance causing her to lose way, and the storm blew her on the beach.

[Shawn]

I keep coming back to the Pere Marquette 18, a newer but similar design boat;

The PM 18 was not newer, it was three years older. How thorough has been your research up to this point that has led you to the theories and conclusions you're putting forth? Many of them don't stand up to the scrutiny of what is known about the wreck, and some of the errors in information involve some of the most basic facts about the boats being discussed.

I don't see it as blowing apart, but more of a bannana peel effect.

In the case of the PM 18, that doesn't stand up to eyewitness accounts, nor is it a likely scenario. Think "balloon" rather than banana. In recent years we have photos of hatch covers being blown off a sinking freighter, and it was very definitely an explosive force throwing the covers a significant distance into the air due to the force behind them, which matches the description of the #18 going down.

Given the similarity of their construction, if the bow of the M&B #2 was also blown open the evidence points to an explosive force.

As for the boat running into the lake instead of a ground? Maybe the compass, was frozen, or due to the heave snow the captian and wheelsman got vertigo or just couldn't determine where they were going and took a chance that shore was ahead of them?

Another very unlikely scenario. These very experienced seamen had been out in this storm for a very long time, possibly having crossed the lake twice and run a short length of both the north and south shores before sinking. I've never heard anyone indicate that the storm changed directions, so the direction of the waves, if nothing else, would have told them the direction they were going.

There are indications that she sought shelter at Conneaut but was unable (understandably) to make the harbor and then turned east, possibly toward Long Point. Making this turn must have been a move borne of desperation, since it would have put her open and very vulnerable stern to the seas. Had the shoreline in that area been suitable for running her ashore to avoid an outright foundering I'm sure they would have chosen that route rather than losing everything to the storm.

Thank you Jared, the ship was steel hull, and that's what makes this unique.

Why is that unique? All of the other carferries that sank were steel-hulled.

Especially since only 9 got off in one boat; and the captain, his brother, and the wheelsman were found the next spring, and early fall of 1910.

That may or may not be an accurate assessment. Of the other three lifeboats, two found near Port Burwell were apparently unused, but the third was found at Buffalo, and may or may not have been used. It was in such a condition that it was not determined for certain. There is certainly adequate precedent for lifeboats having divested themselves of their human cargo that it could have happened in this case also. And it was not uncommon for bodies to have come ashore in remote locations (especially on Long Point) and never have been discovered. It doesn't take long for something like a body to be buried in the sand.

And the little wreckage that was found; does anyone know where they got to?

Apparently there was much found near Port Burwell.

[Shawn]

I still do not know if the superstructure was steel or wood. If it was steel, we defiantly would have found some parts of it during the last search.

I have not been able to verify this with 100% certainty, but I'm reasonably certain the structures from the spar deck upwards were wooden, and that the spar deck itself was steel.

One thing that leads me to believe this is that the Pere Marquette 20 (built at about the same time and to nearly identical plans as the M&B #2) had her entire structure replaced from the spar deck up in 1940 after only a few years of idleness because they had become decayed too badly to restore. Up until being idled she was kept in excellent repair by all indications I've seen.

[Shawn]

I believe that she broke up, and went down in several pieces.

Highly unlikely and definitely unprecedented. Unlike a straight-deck bulk carrier, the carferries are very broad of beam in relation to their length, and the type of construction gives them a rather incredible amount of strength. Under extraordinary abuse, the Milwaukee remained intact in 1929, as did the Ann Arbor #4 in 1924. Under less severe conditions the Pere Marquette 18 sank quickly in 1910, and blew off her forward structure as she went down due to the pressure of air trapped in her bow.

While nobody knows for certain about the Milwaukee, both the PM 18 and AA4 were swamped from the rear once the water reached a certain level in their hull. PM 18 never had a sea gate, AA4 had lost hers in the storm. Milwaukee's was severely damaged and wasn't keeping the water out.

If the M&B #2 had indeed turned toward Long Point, she was very likely shipping water over the stern and could very easily have swamped also. She never had a seagate either.

Now, with no sea gate, and the bow gone, the hull could have collapsed like a box, onto itself.

Again, highly unlikely. As I understand it, the Milwaukee has suffered structural failure in the years since her sinking, but she has not completely collapsed as you describe. The loss of a small section of the bow wouldn't cause enough loss of strength to collapse the hull, and the cargo of rail cars in her hold would prevent a complete collapse in any case. While it is possible and even likely that M&B #2 lost some cars, it isn't likely she lost them all.

So, with the years; and the possability of thic ice pushing it down into the silt, it wouldn't show as a regular ship on any sonar imaging.

In order for the ice to be pushing her down she would have to be in some pretty shallow water. I'm pretty sure the evidence indicates otherwise. Most indicators I have read of to date indicate deep water, not shallow.

Theory 2) She shoaled, and had the bottom torn out of her, or at least gashed.

Any idea where you believe she may have shoaled? Based on other evidence it is likely she went down very quickly (which supports the swamping theory), which should put her very near whatever shoal she may have hit.

[jgorski4]

Brent I agree with you on the boilers, but they could have gone out if they had enough water coming in from the stern; but maybe it was too fast and too much at one time. As for the captain and mate, remember these where company men, and they had a company man aboard with a vast amount of money. So, maybe they were just 'too' much company and endded up on the bottom.

I keep coming back to the Pere Marquette 18, a newer but similar design boat; as it went down the bow blew due to the amount of air captured in the bow. I don't see it as blowing apart, but more of a bannana peel effect.

As for the boat running into the lake instead of a ground? Maybe the compass, was frozen, or due to the heave snow the captian and wheelsman got vertigo or just couldn't determine where they were going and took a chance that shore was ahead of them?

Thank you Jared, the ship was steel hull, and that's what makes this unique. Especially since only 9 got off in one boat; and the captain, his brother, and the wheelsman were found the next spring, and early fall of 1910. I'm trying to find a way to see those autopsy reports, that's if they still have them.

The way the crew was found in the life boat, and only 15 miles off of Erie, makes for a good refrence to trace a trail backwards. And the little wreckage that was found; does anyone know where they got to?

[Brent]

Here's my two cents worth. I don't think a boiler explosion would cause much damage as she had low pressure boilers. As for trapped air blowing out the bow, I doubt it, as Lake Erie isn't very deep and chances are that is she went down stern first chances are she hit bottom before the bow went under. I am pretty sure that the deck houses were made of steel, so I would assume that the windows were probably blown out as well as any hatches and doors. For some reason and this is only from the few bits of evidance I have heard and read that I think she is some where within 20 miles of Conneaut. I believe that Capt Mc Kay got out there and realized that making port on the Canadian side of the lake was too dangerous. At the time were there break waters at any of the Canadian Ports? I think that they turned around and headed back south in hopes of getting back in to Conneaut. What I don't understand is when things got bad they didn't just run the ship ashore. Evidance indiates that they were close to shore on several occasions and turned to head back out into the lake. Beaching the ship would no doubt have been a last resort and resulted in a total loss of the ship, but probably most of the crew would have survived. Running a car ferry on the beach and opening the sea cocks was done quite a few times on the Lake Michigan ferries and none ever became a total loss.

[Jared]

Your conclusions are pretty sound. I have studied many many shipwrecks. I will tell you from experience that there are not many examples of steel wrecks that are blown apart from escaping air or boilers. The Benjamin Noble is the only wreck that I am aware of that has not only blown itself apart from her sinking, but also her catastrophic meeting with the bottom at 360ft below that has destroyed her so much that only 6 feet of her sticks out from the bottom. The Superior City had a catastrophic boiler explosion and she is still intact.

As for her shoaling, I would think that her wreckage would be everywhere. Now correct me if I am wrong, but not much debris washed ashore or was found. I still do not know if the superstructure was steel or wood. If it was steel, we defiantly would have found some parts of it during the last search. I do not believe she would have been flattened or collapsed. It could be just as simple that her location is where nobody has thought of looking or she can be partially buried and deemed as an obstruction on the bottom that no one has investigated. That's how they found the Gilbert 40 years after being listed as an obstruction on the chart in 220ft of water.

After WWII the Navy and Geological Survey Dept did a whole bunch of surveys of the Lake Bottom to update inaccurate charts. They ran sonar and magnetic anomolys all throughout the cold war and into today. These results are published by NOAA and the Canadian Hydrographic Survey Dept on their websites. My advice is to map locations of known wrecks and obstructions and match them up to undived wrecks and quite possibly one may be the M&B2. I know I have some to check out on Lake Huron.

[Guest II]

As a kid I aremember my dad talking about a crane boat that sank in Lake Erie somewhere in the 30s or 40s. He said that when salvagers went to the wreck to retrieve the magnets from the cranes, the boat had sunk far enough into the the sand bottom that the salvage was no longer possible even though it was less than a year after the sinking. Possibly that was the fate of the M&B #2 after she sank.

[jgorski4]

Sorry I'm a bit late with this reply; life got in the way for a bit. Okay, so here goes my theroy for the moment. Jared so, far the evidence I'm finding proves you're right, she went down on the Canada side; but, (okay I'm a cop so this logic works well on car accidents so please don't hang me :D) I believe that she broke up, and went down in several pieces.

Theory 1) A ship at ancor saw her headed east; and her boiler's went out. As she went down, air compressed in the bow and blew it out; Like the Pere Marquette 18 (1). That's why the McLoids and the wheelsman were found on the east side of the Lake, with the lacerations on their abdomens. They got thrown over the wheel and through one of the cables.

Now, with no sea gate, and the bow gone, the hull could have collapsed like a box, onto itself. So, with the years; and the possability of thic ice pushing it down into the silt, it wouldn't show as a regular ship on any sonar imaging.

Theory 2) She shoaled, and had the bottom torn out of her, or at least gashed. The ship went with the movement of the storm without a choice. Giving a brief warning to the crew who were able to escape. And again, with the pressure blowing out the bow, and the hull collapsing onto itself like a box. The crew were inside, maybe trying to keep the cars from breaking free, when all this happened. Thus the limited people found.

I'm asking for ice thickness not because of the weather, but, for the idea that the hull and any part of the ship could have been pushed into the bed.

As of today I did find 3d graphics of the depth of the Lake, and hoping I can triangulate an idea from where the life boat was found, the bodies the next year; and hopefully find that inforamtion where the rail cars where suppose to have been found.

My research continues. And hope all this makes sense and helps.

John

[Jared]

My research in charts has around 200sq miles possible with areas believed search by previous expeditions. 160 or so in Canadian waters. Like I said I'm almost willing to bet she sank in Canadian waters according to guys I talked to that have searched for her.

As for the sonar maps, there are none public that I am aware of at the moment. Most people who hunt for wrecks such as myself keep that information close to our chests.

[Timerover51]

Part of the problem is that nobody knows for certain where she sank, which is why people are asking you to be a bit more specific about what you're looking for. Since nobody has a positive sighting of her in her final hours, and only a few people claim to have heard her (on both sides of the lake), she literally could have gone down anywhere east of a line between Conneaut Ohio and Point Aux Pins Ontario, possibly as far east as Long Point. That is a lot of area in which she could have gone down!

Shawn, about how large is that possible area in square miles?

[Shawn]

Ah, more research; The year I'm looking at is 1909, December.
The year the Marquette & Bessemer #2 (1) dissapeared. I have
a theory, but need some more information about this time of Lake
Erie.

We would be interested in hearing your theory, and there are quite a few people here who have studied the M&B #2 sinking very extensively, even a few who have looked for her based on what is known of her sinking.

Part of the problem is that nobody knows for certain where she sank, which is why people are asking you to be a bit more specific about what you're looking for. Since nobody has a positive sighting of her in her final hours, and only a few people claim to have heard her (on both sides of the lake), she literally could have gone down anywhere east of a line between Conneaut Ohio and Point Aux Pins Ontario, possibly as far east as Long Point. That is a lot of area in which she could have gone down!

Ice conditions near Conneaut and Erie would likely have been significantly different than conditions near Port Stanley, given prevailing wind conditions and other factors.

I'm guessing, based on your query, that you have a theory regarding her sinking that involves ice? If so, remember that she sank in early December, which means that there was likely very little ice on the lake. Here on Lake Michigan, even at the northernmost reaches of the lake, we rarely have ice that early in the season, especially if the lake gets tossed up.

[jgorski4]

Ah, more research; The year I'm looking at is 1909, December.
The year the Marquette & Bessemer #2 (1) dissapeared. I have
a theory, but need some more information about this time of Lake
Erie.

[Brent]

Tough question: If you know where the number 2 disapppeared you are the only one that does. As for ice, when and what year. I have seen Lake Erie ice covered shore to shore 100% coverage and other years where there was less thethen 10% coverage. Depends on the time or year the weather the previous summer and fall and the late fall and early winter temperatures.